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1900O 23C plus

Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:12 am
by UncleGildy
A few weeks ago this caught my eye on eBay which for two reasons: 1) perhaps an interesting planchet break or split in the rim above stATes, 2) there appears to be an extra die break that doesn't belong there.

The VAM-23C seems pretty easy to find on eBay (I already had two), but this is the only one I've ever seen with the extra radial break from the eagle's right wing into the denticles.

Here's the eBay listing photo (color-balanced). Yes, she was a little dirty, but I knew the risks, and took a chance.
00O-v23C+_REV_As-Listed_Gildy.jpg (232.74 KiB) Viewed 2677 times

I cleaned her up a bit using the rose thorn tip (pun intended) from CascadesChris and JB's advise to keep the dirt removal under acetone (while wet) to act as a bit of lubricant at points of contact. Here how she looks now.
00O-v23C+_REV_Restored_Gildy.JPG (329.8 KiB) Viewed 2677 times

Here are a couple crops of the areas of interest I mentioned above.
00O-v23C+_Region-Top&Angled_Gildy.jpg (440.9 KiB) Viewed 2677 times
00O-v23C+_WingTip1&2_Gildy.jpg (214.51 KiB) Viewed 2677 times
00O-v23C+_RimTrench-1&2_Gildy.jpg (117.5 KiB) Viewed 2677 times

Does anyone have this attribute on their 1900-O VAM-23C?

I'm also wondering: is a break like this, in combination with the break above the 'A', what is called a retained cud?

Anyone have a theory on that trench in the rim above stATes? I wonder if it could be a struck through grease or wood, or is it just PMD.

Re: 1900O 23C plus

Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 1:29 am
by RogerRock
The missing metal at rim also involves one denticle. A rim burr or small lamination that detached after
rim was formed but previous to striking is probably the cause. General definition is small planchet defect.
My 1900 O Vam 23C revision specimen does not show the break into denticles from right wing pictured
on your coin. This break does not define a retained cud. A retained cud must exhibit significant metal
displacement that is rim to rim! There is significant metal displacement above ATES that diminishes
right above OF to wing without connecting back into rim.

Re: 1900O 23C plus

Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:39 am
by UncleGildy
Thank you RogerRock for the great explanations!

I've gone from a serious planchet flaw (heavy crack) to just some post mint damage when I received the coin, and now to finally understanding the cause. This makes it much more valuable to me. (Wish I'd taken coin collecting seriously and stuck with it back when I was a kid.)

Retained cud didn't seem right and really didn't make sense to me to be honest. I think I read something a few months back, saw an atypical example and misinterpreted the meaning.

I scrutinized both of my 23C, all the photos at both VAMWorld 1.0 and the VAMWorld 2.0, as well as the PCGS coinfacts photos (only one v23C our of ~82 coins). None show any sign of this radial break into the denticles.

I think there are ≥24 in the SSDC registry, so I am hoping for a few more folks to weigh in. :D

Thanks again,

Re: 1900O 23C plus

Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:01 pm
by UncleGildy
I should have thought to check Ron's Crack City and the Silver Dye right away. (I think Ron1883CC discovered the v23C in 2005, or maybe Cheezhed1 from the LFCP.)

I see four 1900-O VAM-23C at the Silver Dye. No breaks, but one interesting 'development'.
Here is the image that best captures the tell tale sign of a new break on the way: ... 0117u1.jpg

Now I'm more convinced this coin is a later stage of the 23C before she broke down and was taken out of service.
Seem reasonable?

Re: 1900O 23C plus

Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:24 pm
by Mhomei
this reverse is heading for retirement in 2 directions, lets find the later die state!!!

Re: 1900O 23C plus

Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:57 pm
by UncleGildy
Hi Mitch,

The whole 23 series seems a little crowded to be honest. It seems like the only thing in common, to warrant the base number of 23 is the near slanted date. The similarity in the S break between C and E/F is interesting, but clearly different. The date location and OBV attributes of D-F is different than C as well. It's even more fun when you add the differing mint mark locations for A, B C, and D (it looks like D, E and F seem to share the same REV).

So, I must confess, I get a little lost in here, and hope the following aren't stupid questions.

What are the two directions you refer to? I'm guessing this increasing number of die breaks in the 23C part of the VAM23 classification is one direction. If so, what's the other?

Re: 1900O 23C plus

Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:10 pm
by Mhomei
I am only referring to this reverse you posted.
The break above the A moves to the right
and ends around the F of OF.

The other break above the eagles right wing
goes to the left and both areas are reaching terminal state. Would love to see a real cud
Be discovered just to see which one breaks first.

Re: 1900O 23C plus

Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:41 pm
by UncleGildy
Ah, You meant two directions, literally. So it was stupid question after all. :lol:

Yeah, I would love to see a retained cud variant as well. It was neat to see the Silver Dye example reveal a hint or the start of this, and I can only imagine there must be another coin out there which is further down the road to destruction. Pretty neat to find one caught in the middle though.

Re: 1900O 23C plus

Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:41 pm
by morganman
A Wonderful die crack vam example- I love finding these types on auction sites and or
my own inventory. This is what it's all about collecting Morgans

Thanks for your post & great pic's

Re: 1900O 23C plus

Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:02 am
by UncleGildy
Thanks Scott. You're right - these are the things that make VAMMing fun and so hard to quit.