difference between die scratch and die gouge?

[bhinkle]

I was recently searching for a match for my 1878 S and I had noticed a diagonal line, in the wing.
I thought those were called die gouges and looked at the vams, that had die gouges, in the descriptions.
I couldn't find a vam, describing a die gouge, in the wing and I posted it for help.
Lee was nice enough to attribute it as a vam 16, which says it is a die scratch. Thank you again Lee.
Is there a difference between a die scratch and a die gouge or are they both the same?
Attached is the die scratch (gouge), in question.

[impairedsquirrel]

Basically a very subjective difference Bert. There may be specific guidelines that split the two, but if there are Leroy has bounced back and forth across the line many times over the years with listings. I say anything that is as thick/heavy as that (v16? 28?) is a die gouge, in spite of the official wording.

[CascadeChris]

Squirrel summed it up well. It was something that confused me at first too until I assumed basically what Rob said above. It does suck when you have something like that and try doing a quick keyword search to try to nail it down. Oh, and you'll never forget that one now. I always quickly check the eagles breast after I check the wing gap area for acid looking for the "superman" die chip of v16/28 that goes along with that "gouge"..

[DHalladay]

My totally unscientific judgement call has always boiled down to severity – how long, how wide, and how deep it is. To me, the one on your 1878-S is a gouge.

[VamHelsing]

Yep, I use the same criteria as the squirrel.

[HawkeEye]

I have always taken Die Scratch to be superficial and perhaps coming from repolishing a die. Die Gouge I always believed to come from an engraver actually "touching up" a die and inadvertly creating a "mark" on the die. But either could be quite subjective and cross over the imaginary line between the two.

Take the 81-O VAM 1B2, the die gouge through DOL is long, and consistent in depth and width. I would take this one to be accidental and not die retouching. http://www.1881o.com/1b2.html

However, on VAM 1G, the die gouges are a long series of parallel lines and could easily be from polishing. http://www.1881o.com/1g.html

On VAM 1H the die gouges in the wing run perpendicular to the detail in the die, but are parallel where they appear. http://www.1881o.com/1h.html

All very subjective and open to interpretation in my opinion. I also have to remind myself that the dies are quite small and the die scratches/gouges almost invisible to the naked eye in many instances.

[blh74]

Here is a die gouge that Leroy said is one of the biggest.
http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... -CC_VAM-13

[bhinkle]

WOW! THANK YOU EVERYONE for all of your time and valuable information.
I have bought Morgan's only, because they had some very cool die gouges and now
when I try to attribute them, I will also look for the vams, that say die scratches too.
This just keeps getting more and more interesting.
Thanks again, Bert

[HawkeEye]

Here is a die gouge that Leroy said is one of the biggest.
http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... -CC_VAM-13

These are really interesting and very similar to the ones on the 81-O V 1-G. I have difficulty understanding how these could be gouges when they consist of parallel lines and probably did not result from an engraver purposely working to correct the die. So severity not function must be the trump card on this one.

[RogerB]

I use 0.2 mm or wider for a gouge; anything less = scratch unless there's a pattern of die damage. (See 1922-S double eagle variety with filed obverse die.)

[TheFinn2]

When does a bottle become a jar, or a cap a lid? Easy to differentiate at the extremes, but where is the line (if it exists).

[CascadeChris]

When does a bottle become a jar, or a cap a lid? Easy to differentiate at the extremes, but where is the line (if it exists).

Or a shovel a spade...

[messydesk]

I believe cat owners would have an interesting perspective on when a scratch becomes a gouge.

[blh74]

I believe cat owners would have an interesting perspective on when a scratch becomes a gouge.

As a cat owner what can I say? Happy New Year!

[RogerB]

I believe cat owners would have an interesting perspective on when a scratch becomes a gouge.

...and when they become former cat owners.

[bhinkle]

Thank you everyone, now I don't feel so uninformed, when I was searching through the 1878 S vams, on my 1878 S, for a vam, with a die gouge and over looking the vam 16, describing is as a die scratch, in the vam 16's description.
I had thought, like most of you, that the die scratch, was a lot thinner, than a gouge.
Like Chris had said, I won''t make that mistake twice now.
Thanks again, Bert