1900 O/CC Speculation

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RogerB
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by RogerB » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:17 pm

We can only turn over the stones we have. Others will remain lost or unknown.

As for the Carson Mint press #1 - the number has no meaning. The museum has an old, extensively modified toggle press with a number on it. It is NOT identical to the one used at the Carson Mint: the machinery has been modified multiple times. Thus, we cannot assume that the operation of this press is an accurate analog for Carson Mint presses of the 1880s.

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TheYokel
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by TheYokel » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:41 pm

Ever find those shipping records?..
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PacificWR
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by PacificWR » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:41 am

In 1900 the New Orleans Mint experienced many problems with dies. There was a standing monthly order of 10 Silver Dollar die pair. In at least one instance they had to order an additional 5 die par. Most of the problem's with the dies can be attributed to the improper hardening of the dies and planchets. This problem was tempered when gas annealing furnaces were installed (they switched from wood to gas). Roger hit the nail on the head. As part of my 1900-S die study I have run across a lot of information on the New Orleans Mint. Mr. Downing (Foreman of the Coiner's Dept.) was sent down to the New Orleans Mint to resolve the crack die problem. It was Mr. Downing's recommendation to install gas Annealing furnaces. He wrote three reports on this. On my 1900-S die study I have a whole section on this. To view it just go to the 1900-S Attribution Guides and click on dies study material.
Finally, all of the branch mints had problems with the dies.
Last edited by PacificWR on Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TheYokel
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by TheYokel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:23 pm

PacificWR wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:41 am
In 1900 the New Orleans Mint experienced many problems with dies. There was a standing monthly order of 10 Silver Dollar die pair. In at least one instance they had to order an additional 5 die par. Most of the problem's with the dies can be attributed to the improper hardening of the dies and planchets. This problem was tempered when gas annealing furnaces were installed (they switched from wood to gas). Roger hit the nail on the head. As part of my 1900-S die study I have run across a lot of information on the New Orleans Mint. Mr. Downing (Superintendent of Machinery) was sent down to the New Orleans Mint to resolve the crack die problem. It was Mr. Downing's recommendation to install gas Annealing furnaces. He wrote three reports on this. On my 1900-S die study I have a whole section on this. To view it just go to the 1900-S Attribution Guides and click on dies study material.
Finally, all of the branch mints had problems with the dies.

...

...- In at least one instance they had to order an additional 5 die par.
No ones debating that NO had problems...

...but if the guy personally took dies down, we'd have read about it by now. Three reports on faulty machinery and improper production, but no mention of new dies he brought for testing in any of them.

That extra out-of-schedule order sounds much much more likely. Occums Razor.

Honestly though, I'm asking about the shipping records for another research project. Hunting something different from a different coinage. Well. Collars to be exact...
"There is no E"...

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PacificWR
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by PacificWR » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:10 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:23 pm
PacificWR wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:41 am
In 1900 the New Orleans Mint experienced many problems with dies. There was a standing monthly order of 10 Silver Dollar die pair. In at least one instance they had to order an additional 5 die par. Most of the problem's with the dies can be attributed to the improper hardening of the dies and planchets. This problem was tempered when gas annealing furnaces were installed (they switched from wood to gas). Roger hit the nail on the head. As part of my 1900-S die study I have run across a lot of information on the New Orleans Mint. Mr. Downing (Superintendent of Machinery) was sent down to the New Orleans Mint to resolve the crack die problem. It was Mr. Downing's recommendation to install gas Annealing furnaces. He wrote three reports on this. On my 1900-S die study I have a whole section on this. To view it just go to the 1900-S Attribution Guides and click on dies study material.
Finally, all of the branch mints had problems with the dies.

...

...- In at least one instance they had to order an additional 5 die par.
No ones debating that NO had problems...

...but if the guy personally took dies down, we'd have read about it by now. Three reports on faulty machinery and improper production, but no mention of new dies he brought for testing in any of them.

That extra out-of-schedule order sounds much much more likely. Occums Razor.

Honestly though, I'm asking about the shipping records for another research project. Hunting something different from a different coinage. Well. Collars to be exact...
You are missing the point. Mr. Downing was sent down to find out what was causing the dies to crack early in their usage. He did not bring any dies with him. The problem was with the wood fired Annealing furnaces and volume of work the New Orleans mint had (look at the mintage figures).

Some collar information is available in the daily communication records.

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TheYokel
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by TheYokel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:37 pm

PacificWR wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:10 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:23 pm
PacificWR wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:41 am
In 1900 the New Orleans Mint experienced many problems with dies. There was a standing monthly order of 10 Silver Dollar die pair. In at least one instance they had to order an additional 5 die par. Most of the problem's with the dies can be attributed to the improper hardening of the dies and planchets. This problem was tempered when gas annealing furnaces were installed (they switched from wood to gas). Roger hit the nail on the head. As part of my 1900-S die study I have run across a lot of information on the New Orleans Mint. Mr. Downing (Superintendent of Machinery) was sent down to the New Orleans Mint to resolve the crack die problem. It was Mr. Downing's recommendation to install gas Annealing furnaces. He wrote three reports on this. On my 1900-S die study I have a whole section on this. To view it just go to the 1900-S Attribution Guides and click on dies study material.
Finally, all of the branch mints had problems with the dies.

...

...- In at least one instance they had to order an additional 5 die par.
No ones debating that NO had problems...

...but if the guy personally took dies down, we'd have read about it by now. Three reports on faulty machinery and improper production, but no mention of new dies he brought for testing in any of them.

That extra out-of-schedule order sounds much much more likely. Occums Razor.

Honestly though, I'm asking about the shipping records for another research project. Hunting something different from a different coinage. Well. Collars to be exact...
You are missing the point. Mr. Downing was sent down to find out what was causing the dies to crack early in their usage. He did not bring any dies with him. The problem was with the wood fired Annealing furnaces and volume of work the New Orleans mint had (look at the mintage figures).

Some collar information is available in the daily communication records.
That was Mr Rogers speculation, not mine.

I'm just hunting records of unused dies amd collars being sent back to Philly :)

I'll post everything up soon. I need someone with a specific coin that I don't have access to in hand to help me look at something anyways, so will need public discord eventually.
"There is no E"...

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PacificWR
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by PacificWR » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:03 pm

What year are you looking at?

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TheYokel
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by TheYokel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:11 pm

PacificWR wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:03 pm
What year are you looking at?
Trying to see what kind of records Philly kept between 1900-1904 for usage/inventory/shipping.

I'm working on typing up a pdf with all the info on what my hypothesis is... I'll post it up here later today.
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RogerB
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by RogerB » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:23 pm

Collectors should not confuse "hundreds of old Carson Mint dies discovered" with poor accounting of the dies. The Engraver at Philadelphia kept a master inventory of every die. That a few hundred were defaced and not shipped back to Philadelphia (why waste the money?) does not affect the situation. On a couple occasions the Superintendent of the San Francisco Mint gave out canceled dies to VIPs as souvenirs. (Local prosecutors did not like this; thought the defaced dies were permanent government property. Cancelled dies were commonly sold along with other scrap iron.)

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TheYokel
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by TheYokel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:26 pm

RogerB wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:23 pm
Collectors should not confuse "hundreds of old Carson Mint dies discovered" with poor accounting of the dies. The Engraver at Philadelphia kept a master inventory of every die. That a few hundred were defaced and not shipped back to Philadelphia (why waste the money?) does not affect the situation. On a couple occasions the Superintendent of the San Francisco Mint gave out canceled dies to VIPs as souvenirs. (Local prosecutors did not like this; thought the defaced dies were permanent government property. Cancelled dies were commonly sold along with other scrap iron.)
At a mint like New Orleans, i would agree.

At Carson City, 500 dies could easily constitute a 20 year period of every single die used at the mint, based on die usage numbers.
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RogerB
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by RogerB » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:14 am

My point was that accounting for the dies was done at Philadelphia, and the buried Carson dies (or given away SF dies) were correctly logged and their location known. That is: the dies were not missing.

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TheYokel
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by TheYokel » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:59 am

RogerB wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:48 am
If die records for the Engraving Department existed, it might be possible to match left-over CC dies to those sent to New Orleans - every die was tracked even when it was renumbered. But those records seem to be missing. We have to work with what is available, and do what is possible to gradually increase the quantity and access to original documents. (This is only about 1/3 of the potential sources within US Mint archives.)
I was simply trying to explain why you have no records of left over dies from Carson City. They were used and "retired", or in the case of the 6 truly unused dies sent to fill the NO shortage, unused altogether and never counted in the die usage reports.
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PacificWR
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by PacificWR » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:02 am

RogerB wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:48 am
If die records for the Engraving Department existed, it might be possible to match left-over CC dies to those sent to New Orleans - every die was tracked even when it was renumbered. But those records seem to be missing. We have to work with what is available, and do what is possible to gradually increase the quantity and access to original documents. (This is only about 1/3 of the potential sources within US Mint archives.)

Letters listing the first 1900-O dies shipped are among the files in boxes 106-108. Those are probably the ones referred to by Boothby.

I am slowly - very slowly - digitizing the boxes of letters received for late 1899 and all of 1900 into early 1901. We know nothing about the contents of these boxes except the most general information. For example, I learned yesterday that the US Mint was actively considering a formal apprentice program for future Mint employees. When this idea started and its outcome are presently unknown.

The huge volume of material available means that collectors will have to do their own searching via NNP. I can provide guidance, but not direct research.

This is the Bill for the apprentice program.
(Click image to view at higher resolution.)
Image Image
Image Image

RogerB
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by RogerB » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:35 am

RE: "... or in the case of the 6 truly unused dies sent to fill the NO shortage, unused altogether and never counted in the die usage reports."

The above is stated as if it were a fact. It is not.
At present we know nothing about the O/CC reverse dies used at New Orleans in 1900. They were likely left-overs from Carson that were never used, but that is presently conjecture. However, they were part of the Engraver's inventory and were definitely accounted for. Also, they might be on a die report as "unused."

We don;t have enough facts to do more than guess - and those guesses have to stay within normal operating parameters if they are to be credible.

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PacificWR
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by PacificWR » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:53 pm

Shown below on the left is the lot/batch numbers of the 100 die pairs sent to the New Orleans Mint in 1900. The photo on the right shows the total number of dies returned to the Philadelphia Mint on January 5th, 1901. Clearly, when you have 24 reverse dies returned and only one obverse die returned...there is a problem. Notice the statute 3550.
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vampicker
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by vampicker » Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:48 pm

Am I reading the page on the left incorrectly, or does it say the listed obverse dies were all destroyed (defaced) in New Orleans and the reverse dies were shipped back to Philly?
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PacificWR
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Re: 1900 O/CC Speculation

Post by PacificWR » Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:01 pm

vampicker wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:48 pm
Am I reading the page on the left incorrectly, or does it say the listed obverse dies were all destroyed (defaced) in New Orleans and the reverse dies were shipped back to Philly?
You are reading it correct. Mint regulation 3550 requires all working Obverse dies of each mint at the end of each calendar year to be defaced and destroyed by the coiner in the presence of superintendent and assayer. The letter on the right is from the Superintendent of the Philadelphia mint verifying the Obverse dies (from the New Orleans Mint) had been destroyed and what dies had been returned for future use.

The San Francisco Mint sent all of their dies back to the Philadelphia Mint at the beginning of the next year. Not sure if Carson City sent their dies back or not. I have not checked yet.

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