Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

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Mike7E
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Mike7E » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:56 am

1890-S Strike Doubling

Flat shelf at right of S
M7E_ 1890-S strike dbl MM.jpg
M7E_ 1890-S strike dbl MM.jpg (152.42 KiB) Viewed 4455 times
DOL very minor doubling
M7E_1890-S strike dbl S DOL.jpg
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Strike doubling leaves, berry ERI
M7E_1890-S strike dbl ERI berry.jpg
M7E_1890-S strike dbl ERI berry.jpg (230.91 KiB) Viewed 4455 times

ashmore86
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by ashmore86 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:15 pm

vamsterdam wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:12 pm
Machine doubling damage steals from the design to create a “doubled image.” The coin is still in contact with the dies while being ejected. However, in the case of die deterioration doubling, as has been mentioned, the dies become damaged due to wear and tear, and repeated attempts to polish the dies. Many of the doubled ears fall under this category and should never have been listed. Longacre doubling is another story and rarely happens on Morgan’s, probably due the size of the dies involved. It is often seen on Indian cents, 2c, 3c, $1 gold, $3 gold.
I would like to add that it is more likely that it is NOT that the coin is still in contact with the dies while ejecting, but more likely that the dies are getting "sloppy" or "loose" and as the dies are retracting they are still in contact with the coin and they retract with a twist, or shake, or shift, etc. That will cause the stair stepping you see in many coins that are machine doubled...my 2c.

Namvet69
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Namvet69 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:56 am

I do, maybe, your thoughts on the attached 1922-(P) designer initials. The hunt continues. Happy New Year everyone. Peace Roy
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Nile
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Nile » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:22 pm

Machine doubling?
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359E60A5-DD71-4E83-8D71-35B9EFD80598.jpeg
Machine doubling?
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messydesk
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by messydesk » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:43 am

Nile wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:22 pm
Machine doubling?
Yes
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merritte
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by merritte » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:30 am

I have an 1886-S with an unusual doubling effect under the date and lower stars. The doubling appears to be a luster difference and not raised metal. Any opinions or diagnostics on this characteristic?
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123B7AE9-6DC5-422D-ACEA-307B17004B07_4_5005_c.jpeg
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messydesk
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:07 am

merritte wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:30 am
I have an 1886-S with an unusual doubling effect under the date and lower stars. The doubling appears to be a luster difference and not raised metal. Any opinions or diagnostics on this characteristic?
Common effect that is often called "pull-away toning" when there is toning involved. There is an area between peripheral design elements and rim that does not tone because of how the metal flows during striking. This is not just for Morgans, but any type. I have a 17th century sixpence that shows this.
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madbirder
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by madbirder » Wed May 05, 2021 4:03 pm

Machine doubling? From a 1921 Peace.
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1921-P Peace doubled FAM U & beak tip.jpg
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messydesk
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by messydesk » Wed May 05, 2021 4:16 pm

madbirder wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:03 pm
Machine doubling? From a 1921 Peace.
Yes. Notice the smashed look at the corners of the U of UNUM.
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madbirder
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by madbirder » Wed May 05, 2021 10:08 pm

I see what you mean with the splayed corners on the machine doubling but not sure I see that in this picture where the ON looks layered rather than squashed, also the shafts of sunlight. Then again, good luck finding the corner on the O, :lol: From the same coin. Thanks in advance.
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1921-P Peace doubled ON.jpg
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Stlcoin
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Stlcoin » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:07 pm

After review of this topic and the great technical definitions within, I would like to seek all of your wisdom which is a bit OT on this specimen. I have sought insight previously many moons ago and figured we could have some fun with one of my safe dwellers here. I really find the Morgan, Peace, WLH, Mercury, Buffalo and Mexico Libertad & Onza DDO/DDR's quite interesting. See what you think the coin is by Sub Type, Rarity # and Apparent Grade in your opinion and finally give your opinion on the Reverse as to it being either a Doubled Die, Strike Doubling, Double Struck or other Minting Error.

I hope you enjoy..... :popcorn:
DSC09784.JPG
Obverse
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DSC09785(1).JPG
Reverse
DSC09785(1).JPG (335.13 KiB) Viewed 1324 times
DSC09785(2).JPG
Reverse 2
DSC09785(2).JPG (219.21 KiB) Viewed 1324 times

smat45
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by smat45 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:55 am

Looking at https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/76 ... erOneCent/
OBV 4
REV E
would be my guess? Keep in mind...never looked at one until you posted this. :popcorn:
As far as the reverse doubling...my old eyes are not keen enough to decern :ugeek:
Cool CENT Thanks for sharing!
smat

Stlcoin
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Stlcoin » Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:13 pm

smat45 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:55 am
Looking at https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/76 ... erOneCent/
OBV 4
REV E
would be my guess? Keep in mind...never looked at one until you posted this. :popcorn:
As far as the reverse doubling...my old eyes are not keen enough to decern :ugeek:
Cool CENT Thanks for sharing!
smat
Smat - Dead on as a Type 4E & R3 Rarity - As for grading these, quite difficult due to their method of production, certified specimens run the gambit. Will let a few more chime in before revealing the assessment on the Reverse. - Jim

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vampicker
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by vampicker » Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:44 pm

These tokens were produced using hand cut dies, so they aren't truly doubled dies. I don't see any strike doubling and it certain;y isn't double struck. It has some recut letters on the reverse. These are present on all examples of Reverse E
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Stlcoin
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Stlcoin » Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:58 pm

vampicker wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:44 pm
These tokens were produced using hand cut dies, so they aren't truly doubled dies. I don't see any strike doubling and it certain;y isn't double struck. It has some recut letters on the reverse. These are present on all examples of Reverse E
Great Analysis - Not a DDR as dies were hand cut, not strike doubled either, PUP for reverse letters are T in CENT and P which are recut. This was part of the earlier assessment, the balance of the Reverse lettering shows serif doubling to both East-West & North-South, the primary discussion is of the remaining serif doubling and letter thicknesses in the legends which is different in the E Reverse Plates.

James LEE
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by James LEE » Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:39 pm

I want to know the posture of the DOUBLE DIE, is this shape also a kind of double die?
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IPC_2021-08-12.01.04.34.0070.jpg
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madbirder
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by madbirder » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:20 pm

So my question is this. Are not both Machine and Die doubling both errors? Neither should appear on the coin correct? Die fatigue in the case of double ears is a case in point. Not all are doubled, some are die fatigue. As some have mentioned they probably should not have been listed. So why is one kind of doubling cherished and another discarded? or in the case of die fatigue some overlooked and lumped with doubled ears?

Stlcoin
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Stlcoin » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:33 pm

madbirder wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:20 pm
So my question is this. Are not both Machine and Die doubling both errors? Neither should appear on the coin correct? Die fatigue in the case of double ears is a case in point. Not all are doubled, some are die fatigue. As some have mentioned they probably should not have been listed. So why is one kind of doubling cherished and another discarded? or in the case of die fatigue some overlooked and lumped with doubled ears?
Technically, yes both MD, DDO, DDR are errors, the primary reason MD is not considered acceptable/considered worthy is due to the fact that MD happens in individual Machine Press set-up/operational & equipment malfunctions, whereas DDO/DDR's are physically manufactured into working dies by error and would be produced on any Press the dies are installed on. As for die fatigue, it is caused by overuse/failure to a specific working die and not recurrent to the hubbing process unlike DDO/DDR's. Also die fatigue usually happens on very high mintage <specifically, Lincoln Cents> and harder substrate coins <specifically Clad coinage & Jefferson Nickels>. Die Fatigue is not normally seen in Silver Issues either as the Silver is much softer, in those cases Die Fatigue is interchanged with Die Erosion and Typical Over Polishing of working dies.

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madbirder
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by madbirder » Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:21 pm

Stlcoin wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:33 pm
madbirder wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:20 pm
So my question is this. Are not both Machine and Die doubling both errors? Neither should appear on the coin correct? Die fatigue in the case of double ears is a case in point. Not all are doubled, some are die fatigue. As some have mentioned they probably should not have been listed. So why is one kind of doubling cherished and another discarded? or in the case of die fatigue some overlooked and lumped with doubled ears?
Technically, yes both MD, DDO, DDR are errors, the primary reason MD is not considered acceptable/considered worthy is due to the fact that MD happens in individual Machine Press set-up/operational & equipment malfunctions, whereas DDO/DDR's are physically manufactured into working dies by error and would be produced on any Press the dies are installed on. As for die fatigue, it is caused by overuse/failure to a specific working die and not recurrent to the hubbing process unlike DDO/DDR's. Also die fatigue usually happens on very high mintage <specifically, Lincoln Cents> and harder substrate coins <specifically Clad coinage & Jefferson Nickels>. Die Fatigue is not normally seen in Silver Issues either as the Silver is much softer, in those cases Die Fatigue is interchanged with Die Erosion and Typical Over Polishing of working dies.
Thanks, appreciate the insight. So I understand this right, DD is not repunched it's in the hub when they make the die. I went back and read the article but it was more about how to tell the difference.

Jimbob87
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Jimbob87 » Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:12 pm

1858 Flying Eagle Machine doubled Almost all of USA Some of Eagle
1884 CC Morgan Machine Doubled Mintmark
1884 CC (same coin) Double Die Vam 5 C3c Date
Just posting.
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1884cc ddo Vam 2 DD
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