Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

[Stlcoin]

So my question is this. Are not both Machine and Die doubling both errors? Neither should appear on the coin correct? Die fatigue in the case of double ears is a case in point. Not all are doubled, some are die fatigue. As some have mentioned they probably should not have been listed. So why is one kind of doubling cherished and another discarded? or in the case of die fatigue some overlooked and lumped with doubled ears?

Technically, yes both MD, DDO, DDR are errors, the primary reason MD is not considered acceptable/considered worthy is due to the fact that MD happens in individual Machine Press set-up/operational & equipment malfunctions, whereas DDO/DDR's are physically manufactured into working dies by error and would be produced on any Press the dies are installed on. As for die fatigue, it is caused by overuse/failure to a specific working die and not recurrent to the hubbing process unlike DDO/DDR's. Also die fatigue usually happens on very high mintage <specifically, Lincoln Cents> and harder substrate coins <specifically Clad coinage & Jefferson Nickels>. Die Fatigue is not normally seen in Silver Issues either as the Silver is much softer, in those cases Die Fatigue is interchanged with Die Erosion and Typical Over Polishing of working dies.

Thanks, appreciate the insight. So I understand this right, DD is not repunched it's in the hub when they make the die. I went back and read the article but it was more about how to tell the difference.

Correct - Normally caused by mechanical misalignment{s} between Master Die & Working Dies. There are different classifications of this process as well such as Tilted Die Hubbing, etc. Misalignments can be created in all 3 axis'. Although most of the major Doubled Dies errors happen in a rotational axis. Repunching errors happen primarily with re-used Working Dies that are normally polished/repaired in a specific area <i.e- Date or Mint Mark> and then hand set punched into the Die. This is where Over Mint Marks, Offset MM, Misplaced MM/Dates, etc are created.

[JackBnimble01]

Is this machine doubling on the last 2
And the profile of nose?
The reverse has some kind of gouge by
The leaves… is it worth a further look?
Thanks

[messydesk]

The machine doubling on the obverse of the Peace dollar gets people all the time, it's that common. The mark on the reverse is a common clash from the top of Liberty's head.

[James LEE]

It's been 15 years since I owned this coin and I still don't know, please tell me if it's a DOUBLE DIE or MD, 1969-S It's a very sensitive year, so I really want to know for sure, I'll upload a photo with a lot of magnification and a little bit more. Thank you.

IPC_2021-07-28.00.31.41.6550-1-1.jpg (50.32 KiB) Viewed 6123 times

20201212_021838-2.jpg (115.36 KiB) Viewed 6123 times

[Sumdunce]

Maybe a few...

1878 7 Tail Feather VAM079:

1878_7TF_079_cotton_leaves.jpg (202.01 KiB) Viewed 6027 times

1888 VAM6:

1888_6_NI_leaves.jpg (248.51 KiB) Viewed 6027 times

1902O VAM45:

1902O_35_nose.jpg (171.88 KiB) Viewed 6027 times

[keilg1]

Adding my own pesky 1899-O VAM-11. Not an 11A because the cracking isn't as pronounced, but noticed a lot of 'doubling' that looks more like ejection doubling than non-described die doubling. The 1 is doubled, for sure, and a high O, with cracking pattern matching the 11... but noticed many other parts that seemed not quite right - but not all of them look to be equivalent ejection doubling.

First, proving it's a VAM-11:

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A076 - 20211213_165353.jpg (145.84 KiB) Viewed 5777 times

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A079 - 20211213_165516.jpg (113.16 KiB) Viewed 5777 times

Next post I'll attach a few pictures of different parts showing the machine doubling.

[keilg1]

Part 2.

Now the NON-die doubling:

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A092 - 20211213_170943.jpg (140.82 KiB) Viewed 5777 times

A091 - 20211213_170923.jpg (129.67 KiB) Viewed 5777 times

IGWT looks nice, but don't believe this matches the VAM-20 'real' doubling.

Finally, here's an interesting O of OF... again, looks to be a 'real' doubling, but based on everything else, I doubt it.

BTW, nearly all letters on the reverse are doubled, so this is not likely anything but machine doubling but a few letters like this O are rather curious.

[vampicker]

Whatever the cause of the machine doubling, the net result is the same, and tell-tale. Note how the primary image is thinned out with the shelf next to it. The primary and secondary images taken together add up to the normal size of the letters. This is a great example for study

[blh74]

Best pics I have ever seen!

[Melvin_Deal]

Hi Everybody!

A teaching moment maybe.

I have an '83-S with significant machine doubling on the reverse... especially the North of the coin. The images on this post are of some of this.

[Melvin_Deal]

There is some though that puzzle me though. are these also indeed machine doubling??

[Melvin_Deal]

There is also a tad of doubling on the obverse that seem to me not to be machine doubling. What is your opinion on these?

FYI... there are no listed examples of Doubled die varieties for this year and mark beyond the date. Attached also is the date on this one just for reference.

Thanks in advance for any help and input!

Sincerely,
-Mel

[tnytrrs2004]

Good after noon messydesk and VAM World,
i am a big Morgan guy but recently i got a hold of a 2022 eagle that i believe is a doubled die or maybe not. what do you think?

[vampicker]

Strike doubling

[Dawson09]

1924 peace dollar MD?

[messydesk]

Yup. Bottoms of IN GOD look smashed by second contact with die.

[keilg1]

Copying the link to the original post to save server space:

1900-P near 2x date C3 rev - not seeing it described

http://www.vamworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7080

As John writes,

The date is punched into the die separately from the hubbing until 1909. Seeing similar doubling on both the date and devices of this coin help confirm that it's machine doubling. This effect isn't always confined to a certain area of the coin. It's a little odd that it's on the mouth and not on the stars, but the appearance of machine doubling all depends on how the coin comes back into contact with the die.

A fabulous lesson for us all!

[Spiddle86]

Machine or hub doubling on the date on this 1925 P Peace Dollar? The doubled devices appear the correct size when compared to another example w/out doubling of any kind. It’s hard to tell under 10x power but it appears there’s a groove separating the doubling.

[vampicker]

That flat sheared off looking shelf along the front edge of the point of the neck is just about a textbook version of strike doubling. The other points on the piece all line up with roughly the same degree and direction. This is a good coin to keep as a reference piece for strike doubling on a Peace Dollar

[Spiddle86]

Thank you!