Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

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Stlcoin
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:50 am

Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Stlcoin » Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:19 am

madbirder wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:21 pm
Stlcoin wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:33 pm
madbirder wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:20 pm
So my question is this. Are not both Machine and Die doubling both errors? Neither should appear on the coin correct? Die fatigue in the case of double ears is a case in point. Not all are doubled, some are die fatigue. As some have mentioned they probably should not have been listed. So why is one kind of doubling cherished and another discarded? or in the case of die fatigue some overlooked and lumped with doubled ears?
Technically, yes both MD, DDO, DDR are errors, the primary reason MD is not considered acceptable/considered worthy is due to the fact that MD happens in individual Machine Press set-up/operational & equipment malfunctions, whereas DDO/DDR's are physically manufactured into working dies by error and would be produced on any Press the dies are installed on. As for die fatigue, it is caused by overuse/failure to a specific working die and not recurrent to the hubbing process unlike DDO/DDR's. Also die fatigue usually happens on very high mintage <specifically, Lincoln Cents> and harder substrate coins <specifically Clad coinage & Jefferson Nickels>. Die Fatigue is not normally seen in Silver Issues either as the Silver is much softer, in those cases Die Fatigue is interchanged with Die Erosion and Typical Over Polishing of working dies.
Thanks, appreciate the insight. So I understand this right, DD is not repunched it's in the hub when they make the die. I went back and read the article but it was more about how to tell the difference.
Correct - Normally caused by mechanical misalignment{s} between Master Die & Working Dies. There are different classifications of this process as well such as Tilted Die Hubbing, etc. Misalignments can be created in all 3 axis'. Although most of the major Doubled Dies errors happen in a rotational axis. Repunching errors happen primarily with re-used Working Dies that are normally polished/repaired in a specific area <i.e- Date or Mint Mark> and then hand set punched into the Die. This is where Over Mint Marks, Offset MM, Misplaced MM/Dates, etc are created.

JackBnimble01
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by JackBnimble01 » Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:11 am

Is this machine doubling on the last 2
And the profile of nose?
The reverse has some kind of gouge by
The leaves… is it worth a further look?
Thanks
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messydesk
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by messydesk » Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:41 am

The machine doubling on the obverse of the Peace dollar gets people all the time, it's that common. The mark on the reverse is a common clash from the top of Liberty's head.
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James LEE
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by James LEE » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:24 am

It's been 15 years since I owned this coin and I still don't know, please tell me if it's a DOUBLE DIE or MD, 1969-S It's a very sensitive year, so I really want to know for sure, I'll upload a photo with a lot of magnification and a little bit more. Thank you.
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Sumdunce
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by Sumdunce » Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:13 am

Maybe a few...

1878 7 Tail Feather VAM079:
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1888 VAM6:
1888_6_NI_leaves.jpg
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1902O VAM45:
1902O_35_nose.jpg
1902O_35_nose.jpg (171.88 KiB) Viewed 599 times

keilg1
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by keilg1 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:26 pm

Adding my own pesky 1899-O VAM-11. Not an 11A because the cracking isn't as pronounced, but noticed a lot of 'doubling' that looks more like ejection doubling than non-described die doubling. The 1 is doubled, for sure, and a high O, with cracking pattern matching the 11... but noticed many other parts that seemed not quite right - but not all of them look to be equivalent ejection doubling.

First, proving it's a VAM-11:
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A079 - 20211213_165516.jpg
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Next post I'll attach a few pictures of different parts showing the machine doubling.

keilg1
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by keilg1 » Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:30 pm

Part 2.

Now the NON-die doubling:
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IGWT looks nice, but don't believe this matches the VAM-20 'real' doubling.

Finally, here's an interesting O of OF... again, looks to be a 'real' doubling, but based on everything else, I doubt it.

BTW, nearly all letters on the reverse are doubled, so this is not likely anything but machine doubling but a few letters like this O are rather curious.
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vampicker
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by vampicker » Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:54 pm

Whatever the cause of the machine doubling, the net result is the same, and tell-tale. Note how the primary image is thinned out with the shelf next to it. The primary and secondary images taken together add up to the normal size of the letters. This is a great example for study
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blh74
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Re: Do you think you have a Doubled Die?

Post by blh74 » Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:31 am

Best pics I have ever seen!

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