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D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:19 pm
by DHalladay
This one is stumping me. Being a D1 reverse is part of the reason. Not having much to work with in the scribbles zones make it much worse.

Regular reeding.
No clashing.
No dramatic cracks; just several smallish ones (all on the reverse).
Almost no scribbles, aside from one at the bottom of the right zone.
Several interesting vertical polishing lines in Liberty's eye and at the eyelid.

37822542 scribbles 1.jpg
37822542 scribbles 1.jpg (164.31 KiB) Viewed 1628 times
37822542 scribbles 2.jpg
37822542 scribbles 2.jpg (199.56 KiB) Viewed 1628 times
37822542 lines eye.jpg
37822542 lines eye.jpg (257.25 KiB) Viewed 1628 times

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:20 pm
by DHalladay
37822542 crack ONE.jpg
37822542 crack ONE.jpg (230.83 KiB) Viewed 1627 times
37822542 crack DOL.jpg
37822542 crack DOL.jpg (185.08 KiB) Viewed 1627 times
37822542 crack LAR.jpg
37822542 crack LAR.jpg (199.22 KiB) Viewed 1627 times
37822542 crack TED.jpg
37822542 crack TED.jpg (130.66 KiB) Viewed 1627 times
37822542 crack EDST.jpg
37822542 crack EDST.jpg (151.2 KiB) Viewed 1627 times

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:56 pm
by messydesk
Your first two pictures illustrate just how dangerous trying to attribute scribbles can be. Two different looks on the same coin, depending on light.

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:10 pm
by Kissov
I've got one of these in my "I don't know what it is" box (although not in as good a shape as yours).

WIN_20190930_11_54_51_Pro.jpg
WIN_20190930_11_54_51_Pro.jpg (158.79 KiB) Viewed 1616 times
WIN_20190930_11_58_13_Pro.jpg
WIN_20190930_11_58_13_Pro.jpg (151.39 KiB) Viewed 1616 times
WIN_20190930_11_59_40_Pro.jpg
WIN_20190930_11_59_40_Pro.jpg (161.69 KiB) Viewed 1616 times
WIN_20190930_12_00_27_Pro.jpg
WIN_20190930_12_00_27_Pro.jpg (170.65 KiB) Viewed 1616 times
WIN_20190930_12_00_48_Pro.jpg
WIN_20190930_12_00_48_Pro.jpg (169.38 KiB) Viewed 1616 times

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:14 pm
by Kissov
The only thing I've been able to match up is that the two 'pronged' scribbles on the right side of the toe look kinda-sorta like VAM-1AG (as does the almost vertical line on the left side of the toe), but I don't have any examples of 1AG and the other markers listed on the page are fairly light die scratches.

My example is pretty beat up.
WIN_20190930_12_09_31_Pro.jpg
WIN_20190930_12_09_31_Pro.jpg (149.74 KiB) Viewed 1615 times

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:25 pm
by TheYokel
Check against 1T and 7 for me while I give a quick look around...

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:29 pm
by DHalladay
More pixs of small stuff:

37822542 finger feeds.jpg
37822542 finger feeds.jpg (244.68 KiB) Viewed 1589 times
37822542 wreath.jpg
37822542 wreath.jpg (176.09 KiB) Viewed 1589 times
37822542 lines IN.jpg
37822542 lines IN.jpg (257.95 KiB) Viewed 1589 times
37822542 bow.jpg
37822542 bow.jpg (210.23 KiB) Viewed 1589 times

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:46 pm
by Kissov
My coin matches all of the additional shots except the scratches below "In".

Is there a slight beveling of the field above "OF"?

I checked 1T and 7. No luck.

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:17 am
by TheYokel
Can we get a full obverse shot for crack comparisons?

We might need to tackle this one from a different angle...

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:39 am
by DHalladay
All of the cracks on the coin are pictured above in this thread. Not all of them will show up on LFCPs, but I will shoot and post photos on Tuesday.

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:40 am
by DHalladay
Kissov wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:46 pm
Is there a slight beveling of the field above "OF"?
Yes, that's why I posted the photo of it.

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:12 pm
by Kissov
DHalladay wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:39 am
All of the cracks on the coin are pictured above in this thread. Not all of them will show up on LFCPs, but I will shoot and post photos on Tuesday.
My example shows both of the wreath cracks but nothing in the reverse letters.

The obverse of mine has two very faint cracks, one from the 7th left star to the "E", and one from "U" to "S" and almost to the stop. But these are very, very faint.

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:10 pm
by DHalladay
Kissov:

Reading that you found faint obverse cracks on your coin (we obviously have the same unknown VAM, hooray!) sent me back to take a much closer look at mine. It doesn't have either of the obverse cracks you mention, but I did find this one at left star #6. And notice that the stars are tripled:

37822542 crack star L6.jpg
37822542 crack star L6.jpg (190.29 KiB) Viewed 1562 times

Here are the LFCPs, which, due to the 1000-pixel size limitation on this site, show almost none of the cracks that are present. The line at the R in DOLLAR is a piece of lint:

37822542 LFCP obv.jpg
37822542 LFCP obv.jpg (261.88 KiB) Viewed 1562 times
37822542 LFCP rev.jpg
37822542 LFCP rev.jpg (273.14 KiB) Viewed 1562 times

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:52 pm
by ljs123
I believe that it is a LDS VAM-1AG.

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:05 pm
by DHalladay
ljs123 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:52 pm
I believe that it is a LDS VAM-1AG.
Lee: I'm excited to see you say that. Like Kissov, I was also leaning toward 1AG when I looked through the scribbles photos on the VAMworld site. But since I don't have a 1AG with which to compare (and since there is so little scribbles detail remaining on my coin) I didn't feel comfortable making that attribution leap.

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:18 pm
by ljs123
Dennis,
Whenever someone asks for 21-P attribution help, I ALWAYS start with LVA & Crae's Attribution Guide. I know that it only covers part of the 21-Ps, but more times than not, the coin in question seems to be included in their guide.
Your bow photo seems to be a match.

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:23 pm
by DHalladay
ljs123 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:18 pm
Your bow photo seems to be a match.
Yes, Lee. It certainly does. I can't find/understand what Crae and LVA were trying to show in their left wing photo (too dark, too small), but when I go back to my RAW photo of the bow and lighten the area with the scratch above ribbon just a bit, it really matches their photo in the book. And the crack running through the bow area on my coin fits with its LDS status and hence poor scribbles. Here's a second photo of the bow, with lighting positioned to make the scratch above ribbon more clearly visible.

37822542 bow2.jpg
37822542 bow2.jpg (209.4 KiB) Viewed 1536 times


Thank you everyone for your help identifying this coin!


Two more pics; one of a line coming out of the hair on Liberty's forehead, and a better shot of the lines in the eye and eyelid:
37822542 line forehead2.jpg
37822542 line forehead2.jpg (230.32 KiB) Viewed 1525 times
37822542 lines eye2.jpg
37822542 lines eye2.jpg (282.24 KiB) Viewed 1525 times

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:06 am
by weth
It doesn't match any D1 that I have.

I agree that based on the photos, it seems like VAM 1AG LDS is a good candidate.

Re: D1 1921-P help needed

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:08 am
by ljs123
I always love looking at your photos.
:shock: :) :D