New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

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Wizard1
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New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by Wizard1 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:40 pm

Hello all,

Im new to the forums and was referred here by a friend. I recently bought a collection which included a 1904-O MS66 Morgan. I didn't really put too much attention to the coin until I viewed it under a bright light. That's when I noticed a very long and substantial die crack running parallel to the rim of the coin on the Reverse. It can be seen in NGC's own scans of the coin. It runs from the "D" on the word "United" and snakes all the way along the tops of the legend, till it hits the "AM" in America. I searched the list of existing VAMs and didn't see any mention of any other examples of this nor could I find it on google. So im here to ask if this would be considered a new VAM and if so, what type of value we might be looking at.

I have also contacted NGC to inquire how such a large die crack could have been overlooked and not mentioned on the certificate.

Thanks Wizard1

Image

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ChiefRet.
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by ChiefRet. » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:00 pm

Welcome aboard and to the madness.
It is best to provide and obverse and reverse when asking for assistance.
You will get a faster reply that way. I took a look at the reverse and MM position.
See if VAM-44 is a fit.

Wizard1
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by Wizard1 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:06 pm

ChiefRet. wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:00 pm
Welcome aboard and to the madness.
It is best to provide and obverse and reverse when asking for assistance.
You will get a faster reply that way. I took a look at the reverse and MM position.
See if VAM-44 is a fit.
Heres the Obverse:

Image

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ChiefRet.
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by ChiefRet. » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:17 pm

Nice photos; is that a double or thick eyelash?

Wizard1
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by Wizard1 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:19 pm

Looks like a match, same lines on the chin. Same lines "In God", line in the feathers,

So how does one determine rarity for these? Looks like pandora's box has been unleashed

I also saw a notice that the WIKI is closing end of this month. The instructions on how to save everything is cryptic to me. How exactly do I save the entire site for offline use?
ChiefRet. wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:17 pm
Nice photos; is that a double or thick eyelash?
Double line eye lash (if you're referring to those two lines pointing towards the P/L on her forehead)

Wizard1
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by Wizard1 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:30 am

ChiefRet. wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:17 pm
Nice photos; is that a double or thick eyelash?
So since you mentioned those two lines "eyelashes" on morgans forehead ive been going through the other 1904-O's to find that attribution, but can't find it. Can someone share or point me into the right direction

Discovering this one has made me pull out all my other morgans to see if there are any VAMs in there as well!

shortnock
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by shortnock » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:35 am

Welcome to the addiction.
Refrain from computing the total number of poultry... before the process of incubation has fully materialized.

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ifthevamzarockin
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by ifthevamzarockin » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:01 am

Welcome Wizard,

Very nice coin!

Die cracks are fairly common on Morgans and usually not a listable feature unless there is field displacement.
The extra eye lash I would guess is a bag mark or post mint damage.

A good place to start when trying to find your Vam is with date or mint mark placement.
Yours looks like a high O set slightly left. Take a look at Vam 26 to see if it is a match to your coin.

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LorenAlbert
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by LorenAlbert » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:31 am

Have you had a chance to followup with ChiefRet's suggestion of 1904-O VAM-44? Your coin has a slanted date (not attributed) and a high mint mark. Although, as suggested above, cracks are not usually listed, they can aid identification; albeit as a last resort due to lability. The 44 reverse appears to match. You might want to verify the markers shown on the 1904-O VAM-44 topic page with a loupe. Of course, you may want to verify the attributes; Doubled Profile & Hair, Engraved Jaw & Neck with a loupe and/or closeup photography. Welcome to VAMWorld.

Higher resolution views that may help compare cracks to the 1904-O VAM-44 reverse LFCP are linked below. Click the opened photographed a second time to view full native resolution.
https://ngc-coins.s3-us-west-2.amazonaw ... 08_REV.JPG
http://www.vamworld.com/file/view/1904- ... 072014.jpg

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ifthevamzarockin
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by ifthevamzarockin » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:48 pm

Sorry I was sleep posting again :)

rodmeader
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by rodmeader » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:00 pm

Welcome to the world of Morgan Varieties.

bobbyjenkins
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by bobbyjenkins » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:32 am

Welcome!

Wizard1
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by Wizard1 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:42 am

LorenAlbert wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:31 am
Have you had a chance to followup with ChiefRet's suggestion of 1904-O VAM-44? Your coin has a slanted date (not attributed) and a high mint mark. Although, as suggested above, cracks are not usually listed, they can aid identification; albeit as a last resort due to lability. The 44 reverse appears to match. You might want to verify the markers shown on the 1904-O VAM-44 topic page with a loupe. Of course, you may want to verify the attributes; Doubled Profile & Hair, Engraved Jaw & Neck with a loupe and/or closeup photography. Welcome to VAMWorld.

Higher resolution views that may help compare cracks to the 1904-O VAM-44 reverse LFCP are linked below. Click the opened photographed a second time to view full native resolution.
https://ngc-coins.s3-us-west-2.amazonaw ... 08_REV.JPG
http://www.vamworld.com/file/view/1904- ... 072014.jpg
Thank you for your information. Yes comparing it to the features mentioned it seems to be a VAM-44. Only thing im unsure of is the actual doubled Hair portion. The die cracks, the polishing at "In God", the engraved Jaw seem to match.

You also mentioned slanted date and high mint mark. Are those typically associated with VAM-44?

Thanks

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LorenAlbert
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by LorenAlbert » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:13 pm

You also mentioned slanted date and high mint mark. Are those typically associated with VAM-44?
Attribution 101 - Learn your way around the Morgan Dollar.
Guidelines from Leroy Van Allen on listing new die varieties.

You have asked a seemingly straight forward question deserving of an answer in kind. The answer in kind is "yes."

Welcome to the madness. My parenthetical "not attributed" in regards to the slanted date was loaded. Perhaps polemical. My primary goal in looking at your coin was to identify the die pair. My secondary goal was to speculate how the die pair would be attributed by LVA or a service. I have control over die pair identification. I like that. I have no control over die pair attribution (assigning a VAM number). I don't like that so much.

Die pair identification and die pair attribution are not the same. I don't like identifying a die by a crack pattern. Your photograph of the reverse makes the crack pattern the only game in town. If you are not familiar with taxonomy, arriving at an answer to your question may take awhile (years). Books have been written in attempt to answer your question.

The subheading for 1904-O VAM-44
44 III2-19 C4h (Doubled Profile & Hair, Engraved Jaw & Neck, High O Tilted Left ) (181) I-4 R-5

Any die pair, regardless of die identification, that satisfies the subheading description may be correctly attributed as VAM-44. Thus, III2-19 and C4h do not refer to die identification. They refer to a class of dies that satisfy their description.

A particular variety (VAM-44) may be satisfied by any die pair the reflects the attributes (subheading). More than one identified die pair may do so. But....., a particular die pair (identification) may only satisfy one base attribution. Thus, the identified die pair that minted your coin, if attributed as VAM-44, can not, at the same time, correctly attribute to any other base variety.

So once again; you asked a simple question. The simple, but dangerous, answer is "yes." Wherein lies the danger? Neither the slanted date nor the cracks are included in the subheading for the attribution. I gambled that the LFCPs on the 1904-O VAM-44 VAMWorld topic page are correct and verified that your coin was minted of the same die pair. This is an inference, not a direct attribution. This is why I recommended that you verify the attributes with a loupe and with closeup photography.

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sdaws6249
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Re: New to the Forums. 1904-O with very long Die Crack

Post by sdaws6249 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:47 pm

Welcome and prepare to be hooked!!!
Discovering this one has made me pull out all my other morgans to see if there are any VAMs in there as well!

Well I can guarantee if you pull out the rest of your Morgans you will find other VAMs... the reason I am so confident in my statement is... ALL Morgans are VAMs... VAM assignment is based on the dies used to strike the coins... Trick is, there may still be an "undiscovered" die or pairing... Find that and YOU will be credited as discovering a new VAM..<<< (this happens a lot more often than you probably would imagine!!!)

Happy Hunting!!!
Success teaches us nothing; only failure teaches.

Hyman Rickover

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