Die State

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
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raynat3
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Die State

Post by raynat3 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:11 pm

Same obverse different VAM.

Which one is the early Die State?
1909B776-0F0F-4D62-8C15-03ADEEE6D244.jpeg
1909B776-0F0F-4D62-8C15-03ADEEE6D244.jpeg (347.74 KiB) Viewed 397 times

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vampicker
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Re: Die State

Post by vampicker » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:33 pm

The one on the right is earlier, but that also appears to be well on its way to a transition to mid die state.
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Mhomei
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Re: Die State

Post by Mhomei » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:08 pm

I agree
The right one

VamHelsing
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Re: Die State

Post by VamHelsing » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:53 pm

the right one

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vampicker
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Re: Die State

Post by vampicker » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:32 pm

Wouldn't surprise me if the piece on the left comes with mirrored surfaces
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Kissov
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Re: Die State

Post by Kissov » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:39 pm

Same coin, different lighting?

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TheYokel
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Re: Die State

Post by TheYokel » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:44 pm

vampicker wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:32 pm
Wouldn't surprise me if the piece on the left comes with mirrored surfaces
Could've had the die polished later?

This a 26 / 7 pairing?...
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shortnock
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Re: Die State

Post by shortnock » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:53 pm

Nice brain teaser, Ray.....Still anticipating Raynat's book on '83 O specimens.
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CascadeChris
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Re: Die State

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:57 pm

The denticles tell the tale..
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dave700x
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Re: Die State

Post by dave700x » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:28 pm

I still have a Morgan tagged VAM-1157... :oops:
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rodmeader
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Re: Die State

Post by rodmeader » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:33 pm

I go with the right one.

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LorenAlbert
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Re: Die State

Post by LorenAlbert » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:50 pm

I would like to see equally sharp focus at the denticle field interface with comparable lighting. The same for the center serifs of the 3s. The same for right inside walls of the loops. I see contradictory characteristics that may be a property of the photographs. If one relied solely on the shape of the right indenticular cleft, then you have to bet on the right photograph being of the earlier minting. But there are contradictions. I would not, however, bet on the left without weight. I am sitting this one out.

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TheYokel
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Re: Die State

Post by TheYokel » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:04 pm

LorenAlbert wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:50 pm
I would like to see equally sharp focus at the denticle field interface with comparable lighting. The same for the center serifs of the 3s. The same for right inside walls of the loops. I see contradictory characteristics that may be a property of the photographs. If one relied solely on the shape of the right indenticular cleft, then you have to bet on the right photograph being of the earlier minting. But there are contradictions. I would not, however, bet on the left without weight. I am sitting this one out.
It might not be a progression, so the corresponding details might not entirely count against each other.

If it's a shared obverse, but not a swapped obverse, the hubbing would give slightly different detail crispness on the two different dies, although still being the "same" obverse. Or one of the dies may have never been polished well to begin with...

If it's a swap or a single progression with the actual same obverse, it could have simply had a die repair when re-paired (da-dun-chss).

A smoother field, by itself, can be explained. It's the combined observation of the known details *with* the surfaces that would make the state stand out.

I'm still shooting from the hip and saying the left coin is a 26 and the right coin is a 7.
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vampicker
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Re: Die State

Post by vampicker » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:15 pm

No Ant, no. These aren't Ikes
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LorenAlbert
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Re: Die State

Post by LorenAlbert » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:24 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:04 pm
I'm still shooting from the hip and saying the left coin is a 26 and the right coin is a 7.
Hey Ant. I may be a little out of touch on this thread. Are you speaking of 83OV7/26? If so, that is a kill; except for a little logical problem with proving that something does not exist.

I was basing my assessment solely on the photographs. If Ray had not stated that the both photographs were of coins minted from the same obverse die, I would have questioned die identity before mint order. The coin on the right appears to be die doubled; not so much for the coin on the left. Thus, is the doubling wear related or hubbing related? Hubbing equals earlier minting than left. Wear equals later minting than left. But the photographs are not sharp enough to operate at this level.
The psychology of recent postings tell me that Ray has likely shown a 1C1/16 or a 1C2/1J; but I have not studied the photographs at that level of granularity. I don't need to know the attributions to weigh in on the question. To be a contrarian, I would bet the left is the earlier minting if someone gave me 10/1 weight.

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TheYokel
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Re: Die State

Post by TheYokel » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:58 pm

vampicker wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:15 pm
No Ant, no. These aren't Ikes
Whatcha mean boss? Good day for me to learn something :)

I was referring to the 83-o V26 and V7.

The hypothetical situation i was thinking of was a working hub creating matching working dies with the same details, but different detail crispness.

Or a working hub creating matching working dies that initially got polished to different levels of mirrored to begin with.
LorenAlbert wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:24 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:04 pm
I'm still shooting from the hip and saying the left coin is a 26 and the right coin is a 7.
Hey Ant. I may be a little out of touch on this thread. Are you speaking of 83OV7/26? If so, that is a kill; except for a little logical problem with proving that something does not exist.

I was basing my assessment solely on the photographs. If Ray had not stated that the both photographs were of coins minted from the same obverse die, I would have questioned die identity before mint order. The coin on the right appears to be die doubled; not so much for the coin on the left. Thus, is the doubling wear related or hubbing related? Hubbing equals earlier minting than left. Wear equals later minting than left. But the photographs are not sharp enough to operate at this level.
The psychology of recent postings tell me that Ray has likely shown a 1C1/16 or a 1C2/1J; but I have not studied the photographs at that level of granularity. I don't need to know the attributions to weigh in on the question. To be a contrarian, I would bet the left is the earlier minting if someone gave me 10/1 weight.
Do we not have examples of LVA'd V7's? If it showed the same reeding, i don't see why would he argue to keep one around? Or if it showed the same mushy M...?

Per the coin: the surfaces definitely look better on the left, but that would have to be a seriously weak strike to cause the details and denticles to crunch up so much if it were a truly earlier minting, in my mind. Them denticles are all kinds of beveled...

The middle point of the 3 is so much better on the right, and the denticles haven't begun beveling yet.

Coin on the left definitely has the possibility of a 1J, considering the beveled slopes and where the picture cuts of at.

To be honest, I wonder what the motive is of trying to "test" the membership on such a small sample size of one number on a coin.

If we are going to judge on one single photo... May we request the location? :ugeek:
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raynat3
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Re: Die State

Post by raynat3 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:01 am

I should have said "earlier" Die State rather than "early" Die State

Coin on left is VAM 16
Coin on right is VAM 1C1. It is in my photo file of the non-clashed 1C1's but I can't access the coin at this time to determine if it truly is the non-clashed version.

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TheYokel
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Re: Die State

Post by TheYokel » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:15 am

raynat3 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:01 am
I should have said "earlier" Die State rather than "early" Die State

Coin on left is VAM 16
Coin on right is VAM 1C1. It is in my photo file of the non-clashed 1C1's but I can't access the coin at this time to determine if it truly is the non-clashed version.
Was the obverse from the 1C1 swapped onto the 16 after the reverse on the 1C1 deteriorated? It says that there are 1C1 with the deteriorated reverse have been seen in PL, so the reverse went quick.

Are all 16 obverses clashed or polished to remove the marks?

If a 16 has been seen unclashed, wouldn't that just mean they are matching working dies and not necessarily the same die itself?

Seems a simple answer is available for this progression. What's the die study say?
LorenAlbert wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:24 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:04 pm
I'm still shooting from the hip and saying the left coin is a 26 and the right coin is a 7.
The psychology of recent postings tell me that Ray has likely shown a 1C1/16 or a 1C2/1J; but I have not studied the photographs at that level of granularity.
Whatcha charge per hour, doc? :lol:
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raynat3
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Re: Die State

Post by raynat3 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:40 am

Ant,

I was attempting to show at least knowing that the 16 obv was later than the 1C1 obv, similar to the 1C2-1C3-1J obverse progression.

I have non-clashed PCGS 62DMPL and single clashed NGC 63PL 1C1's. From the photos I have the clashed version has a great deal of polishing going on the Reverse.


Why were you thinking 7?

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TheYokel
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Re: Die State

Post by TheYokel » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:55 am

raynat3 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:40 am
Why were you thinking 7?
Identical VAMs seemed like the perfect mind-screw inclusion for such an arbitrary post :)
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