Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

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Kissov
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Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by Kissov » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:28 pm

...The same thing?

Scribbles look similar, etc.

weth
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by weth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:14 pm

They do look similar, don't they?
And the full-coin picture on the VAM 87 page shows bevelling similar to that shown on the VAM 65 page.

Hopefully Dennis or the like can provide a differentiation; if not, it may indeed be a redundant listing.

DHalladay
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by DHalladay » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:17 pm

Yes, they certainly do appear to be the same.

My VAM 65 is attributed by VSS
My VAM 87 was attributed by LVA

Everything I notice on one coin... is on the other.

Great catch!
When in doubt... don't.

weth
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by weth » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:09 pm

DHalladay wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:17 pm
Yes, they certainly do appear to be the same.

My VAM 65 is attributed by VSS
My VAM 87 was attributed by LVA

Everything I notice on one coin... is on the other.

Great catch!
Kill, Dennis - kill, kill!

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ljs123
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by ljs123 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:49 pm

WTG
Nice work K.

Kissov
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by Kissov » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:01 pm

Thanks all.

Always good to thin the herd.

DHalladay
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by DHalladay » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:38 pm

Here are some just-taken scribbles pictures of my coins:

VAM 65:
x scribbles VAM 65 2.jpg
x scribbles VAM 65 2.jpg (215.6 KiB) Viewed 477 times

VAM 87:
x scribbles VAM 87 2.jpg
x scribbles VAM 87 2.jpg (186.28 KiB) Viewed 477 times
When in doubt... don't.

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messydesk
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by messydesk » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:35 pm

Are the obverses also the same? Unfortunately, there's no way to tell if they're supposed to look different, despite similar descriptions. Tripling on the VAM 87 does look stronger than what is pictured for VAM 65, but that could just be the difference in the coins causing that.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

Kissov
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by Kissov » Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:51 pm

On an example I have been calling VAM-65 (the reverse scribbles match the 65/87 ones) there is a small gouge below the obverse designer's initial.

WIN_20190904_06_44_55_Pro.jpg
WIN_20190904_06_44_55_Pro.jpg (118.68 KiB) Viewed 445 times

DHalladay
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by DHalladay » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:00 pm

messydesk wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:35 pm
Are the obverses also the same? Unfortunately, there's no way to tell if they're supposed to look different, despite similar descriptions. Tripling on the VAM 87 does look stronger than what is pictured for VAM 65, but that could just be the difference in the coins causing that.
ear VAM 65.jpg
ear VAM 65.jpg (218.41 KiB) Viewed 432 times
ear VAM 87.jpg
ear VAM 87.jpg (161.53 KiB) Viewed 432 times
bolls VAM 65.jpg
bolls VAM 65.jpg (258.67 KiB) Viewed 432 times
bolls VAM 87.jpg
bolls VAM 87.jpg (230.65 KiB) Viewed 432 times
When in doubt... don't.

DHalladay
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by DHalladay » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:03 pm

leaf tip VAM 65.jpg
leaf tip VAM 65.jpg (303.52 KiB) Viewed 431 times
leaf tip VAM 87.jpg
leaf tip VAM 87.jpg (279.99 KiB) Viewed 431 times
hair VAM 65.jpg
hair VAM 65.jpg (219.32 KiB) Viewed 431 times
hair VAM 87.jpg
hair VAM 87.jpg (212.87 KiB) Viewed 431 times
When in doubt... don't.

DHalladay
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by DHalladay » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:04 pm

initialM VAM 65.jpg
initialM VAM 65.jpg (238.43 KiB) Viewed 431 times
initialM VAM 87.jpg
initialM VAM 87.jpg (277.15 KiB) Viewed 431 times
When in doubt... don't.

Kissov
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by Kissov » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:46 pm

Good work!

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TheFinn2
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by TheFinn2 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:31 am

The devil's in the details. Out satan, out!
"The Barbers can kiss my arse."

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messydesk
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by messydesk » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:52 pm

Given this, I see no need to call anything VAM 87. The problem here is the lack of the discovery coins proving they're the same, which is what will prevent VAM 87 from being eliminated.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

Kissov
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by Kissov » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:26 pm

messydesk wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:52 pm
The problem here is the lack of the discovery coins proving they're the same, which is what will prevent VAM 87 from being eliminated.
That is a shame, and a weakness in how VAMs are described.

I think we can agree that the same reverse die was used on 65 and 87, since the scribbles match.

Dennis showed numerous obverse markers shared between 65 and 87 on his attributed examples. Had these markers been incorporated into the description of these VAMs, there would be no need to see discovery coins.

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messydesk
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by messydesk » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:31 pm

Kissov wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:26 pm
messydesk wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:52 pm
The problem here is the lack of the discovery coins proving they're the same, which is what will prevent VAM 87 from being eliminated.
That is a shame, and a weakness in how VAMs are described.

I think we can agree that the same reverse die was used on 65 and 87, since the scribbles match.

Dennis showed numerous obverse markers shared between 65 and 87 on his attributed examples. Had these markers been incorporated into the description of these VAMs, there would be no need to see discovery coins.
That's why Leroy includes them now.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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ljs123
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by ljs123 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:11 pm

:lol:
Welcome to the world of 21-Ps.
Several of us have been working through this.
I'm glad that you have joined us.
Keep up the good work :!:

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ljs123
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by ljs123 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:08 pm

Kissov wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:26 pm
messydesk wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:52 pm
The problem here is the lack of the discovery coins proving they're the same, which is what will prevent VAM 87 from being eliminated.
That is a shame, and a weakness in how VAMs are described.

I think we can agree that the same reverse die was used on 65 and 87, since the scribbles match.

Dennis showed numerous obverse markers shared between 65 and 87 on his attributed examples. Had these markers been incorporated into the description of these VAMs, there would be no need to see discovery coins.


Kissov,
From a 21-P historical standpoint, die markers have also caused problems.

There was a D1 reverse VAM listed with a die marker that was on the reverse of many D1 VAMs. It was not a surprise when someone would post that they attributed a 21-P VAM, and we had to inform them that they did not have the VAM listed with that die marker. Their understandable pushback was that LVA said VAM-XYZ has this die marker. People started looking and reporting their VAMs with this marker. Dennis compile a long list of VAMs with this marker and eventually it was understood that it was not a unique marker.

I agree that die markers are much more helpful than problematic. But understand it is not always easy with 21-Ps. :)

And keep doing what you have been doing. You have made lots of good posts and observations :!: :D

Kissov
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Re: Are Morgan 1921-P VAM-65 and VAM-87...

Post by Kissov » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:28 pm

ljs123 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:08 pm
There was a D1 reverse VAM listed with a die marker that was on the reverse of many D1 VAMs. It was not a surprise when someone would post that they attributed a 21-P VAM, and we had to inform them that they did not have the VAM listed with that die marker. Their understandable pushback was that LVA said VAM-XYZ has this die marker. People started looking and reporting their VAMs with this marker. Dennis compile a long list of VAMs with this marker and eventually it was understood that it was not a unique marker.
I assume you mean the D1 necklace varieties. I have seen very few D1s (maybe none) that do not have some evidence of the "necklace". Even though that marker may occur in one fashion or another on every D1, there is variation even in that feature that might be useful in distinguishing a die, in combination with other markers.

With the hundreds of 21 VAMs out there, it is most frustrating to have a coin in hand that has some fairly distinct marker (in the bow, in the wing feathers, in the wreaths, etc.) that does not appear in the VAM listing. This is especially true when scribbles have vanished. I am encouraged by the many listings that have supplemental photos illustrating additional markers.

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