1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

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lioncutter
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1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by lioncutter » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:30 am

Cherrypicked this beauty on the cheap from the bay. I was thinking it to be the VAM 1C2 but has only the single clash on the eagle's right wing. I can faintly see a "M" clash on reverse above "D" in God but my question is, Is it a 1C1 or 1C2? Does it have to be double clashed to be the 1C2, since on the 1C2 you can see the "M" clash easily with a loupe?
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1883 O VAM 1C2 PCGS Gold Shield.jpg
1883 O VAM 1C2 PCGS Gold Shield.jpg (269.06 KiB) Viewed 452 times
1883 O VAM 1C2 PCGS reverse.jpg
1883 O VAM 1C2 PCGS reverse.jpg (143.45 KiB) Viewed 452 times
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by TheYokel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:02 am

There are unclashed versions of 1C1.

There is also an unclashed obverse for 1C2. 1C1 and 1C2 aren't a related progression. You are asking if a clash event changed the 1C1 into the 1C2, but they aren't the same pair. The clash *did* create the 1C2, but it was a different die pair to begin with.

Look for the polishing lines in the hair on the obverse to know if you have a 1C2.
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CascadeChris
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by CascadeChris » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:18 am

@dave700x let you snag one off the bay?! πŸ€” :lol: Nice get..
Last edited by CascadeChris on Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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raynat3
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by raynat3 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:48 am

If it has the clashed m it would be a 1C2. I don’t recall seeing the m on a single clashed specimen.

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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by dave700x » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:59 pm

I don't recall a clashed M with the 1C1 obverse die and I don't believe I have a single clashed 1C2 either. I'll have to check mine again for the M....But as Ant stated the line between 1C1 and 1C2 is drawn by the obverse die and the lines in the hair D is the easiest marker to see.

CascadeChris wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:18 am
@dave700x let you snag one off the bay?! πŸ€” :lol: Nice get..
Heh, I missed this one... :lol:
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lioncutter
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by lioncutter » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:53 pm

Thanks for all the replies. It is VAM 1C1 as it matches the obverse die lines in the hair. Interesting VAM though. The faint "M" clash is more like a phantom "M" clash. I don't think it could be used as a pup.
It seems like as soon as it changed obverse dies, the second clash happened. I have 5 examples of the 1C1 & 1C2 and all of my 1C2 double clashes match the obverse die for that VAM. Still looking for that 1C3 though. :roll:
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by TheYokel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:28 pm

lioncutter wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:53 pm
Thanks for all the replies. It is VAM 1C1 as it matches the obverse die lines in the hair. Interesting VAM though. The faint "M" clash is more like a phantom "M" clash. I don't think it could be used as a pup.
It seems like as soon as it changed obverse dies, the second clash happened. I have 5 examples of the 1C1 & 1C2 and all of my 1C2 double clashes match the obverse die for that VAM. Still looking for that 1C3 though. :roll:
The lines in the hair on the obverse define it as a 1C2... That might not be a phantom M... Just a weak strike...
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:31 pm

Both share a reverse, but different obverses. This VAM is listed for the reverse features, so being paired with a new obverse is the definition of a die stage and 1c1 and 1c2 absolutely follow a progression because, again, we are monitoring the same reverse.

In other news... WOW! Pat, YOU SUCK! Nice pick, I'm still on the lookout for a DMPL, just for the bonus registry points.
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:35 pm

TheYokel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:28 pm
lioncutter wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:53 pm
Thanks for all the replies. It is VAM 1C1 as it matches the obverse die lines in the hair. Interesting VAM though. The faint "M" clash is more like a phantom "M" clash. I don't think it could be used as a pup.
It seems like as soon as it changed obverse dies, the second clash happened. I have 5 examples of the 1C1 & 1C2 and all of my 1C2 double clashes match the obverse die for that VAM. Still looking for that 1C3 though. :roll:
The lines in the hair on the obverse define it as a 1C2... That might not be a phantom M... Just a weak strike...
Sigh... No, THE STRONG M CLASH THAT WAS TRANSFERRED IN THE SECOND CLASHING EPISODE defines it as a 1c2, that's why the 1c2 is listed as "Buffed Reverse, CLASHED DIE REVERSE M"
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by TheYokel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:41 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:31 pm
Both share a reverse, but different obverses. This VAM is listed for the reverse features, so being paired with a new obverse is the definition of a die stage and 1c1 and 1c2 absolutely follow a progression because, again, we are monitoring the same reverse.

In other news... WOW! Pat, YOU SUCK! Nice pick, I'm still on the lookout for a DMPL, just for the bonus registry points.
The VAM/pair follows a progression. The clashes do not. That was the meaning.
impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:35 pm
TheYokel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:28 pm
lioncutter wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:53 pm
Thanks for all the replies. It is VAM 1C1 as it matches the obverse die lines in the hair. Interesting VAM though. The faint "M" clash is more like a phantom "M" clash. I don't think it could be used as a pup.
It seems like as soon as it changed obverse dies, the second clash happened. I have 5 examples of the 1C1 & 1C2 and all of my 1C2 double clashes match the obverse die for that VAM. Still looking for that 1C3 though. :roll:
The lines in the hair on the obverse define it as a 1C2... That might not be a phantom M... Just a weak strike...
Sigh... No, THE STRONG M CLASH THAT WAS TRANSFERRED IN THE SECOND CLASHING EPISODE defines it as a 1c2, that's why the 1c2 is listed as "Buffed Reverse, CLASHED DIE REVERSE M"
Depends on which obverse he has. If it's a 1C2 obverse with no M... Then he has a new listing for the un-transfered 1C2 without the M.

You can't revert a completely different obverse to 1C1. It even says in the listing that a 1C1 is KNOWN WITH AN M....

So NO... The M alone doesn't define it. The combination of the obverse AND the M do...
"There is no E"...

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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:44 pm

TheYokel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:41 pm
impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:31 pm
Both share a reverse, but different obverses. This VAM is listed for the reverse features, so being paired with a new obverse is the definition of a die stage and 1c1 and 1c2 absolutely follow a progression because, again, we are monitoring the same reverse.

In other news... WOW! Pat, YOU SUCK! Nice pick, I'm still on the lookout for a DMPL, just for the bonus registry points.
The VAM/pair follows a progression. The clashes do not. That was the meaning.
impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:35 pm
TheYokel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:28 pm


The lines in the hair on the obverse define it as a 1C2... That might not be a phantom M... Just a weak strike...
Sigh... No, THE STRONG M CLASH THAT WAS TRANSFERRED IN THE SECOND CLASHING EPISODE defines it as a 1c2, that's why the 1c2 is listed as "Buffed Reverse, CLASHED DIE REVERSE M"
Depends on which obverse he has. If it's a 1C2 obverse with no M... Then he has a new listing for the un-transfered 1C2 without the M.

You can't revert a completely different obverse to 1C1. It even says in the listing that a 1C1 is KNOWN WITH AN M....

So NO... The M alone doesn't define it. The combination of the obverse AND the M do...
That's not the listing, that the VAMworld page. And I don't know whose note that is, but I've seen many single clashed 1c1's and have never found a discernible m on any of them.
Also, I'll take this moment to explain that the reason for "multiple dies pairs may exist" is because if the new obverse has no listable differences, but the reverse ("money side" for this specific VAM) has all the features of the base VAM, the new obverse doesn't affect the listing. If you wanted to split hairs you could call them 1c1.1 and 1c1.2, but why?
Last edited by impairedsquirrel on Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by TheYokel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:45 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:44 pm
TheYokel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:41 pm
impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:31 pm
Both share a reverse, but different obverses. This VAM is listed for the reverse features, so being paired with a new obverse is the definition of a die stage and 1c1 and 1c2 absolutely follow a progression because, again, we are monitoring the same reverse.

In other news... WOW! Pat, YOU SUCK! Nice pick, I'm still on the lookout for a DMPL, just for the bonus registry points.
The VAM/pair follows a progression. The clashes do not. That was the meaning.
impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:35 pm


Sigh... No, THE STRONG M CLASH THAT WAS TRANSFERRED IN THE SECOND CLASHING EPISODE defines it as a 1c2, that's why the 1c2 is listed as "Buffed Reverse, CLASHED DIE REVERSE M"
Depends on which obverse he has. If it's a 1C2 obverse with no M... Then he has a new listing for the un-transfered 1C2 without the M.

You can't revert a completely different obverse to 1C1. It even says in the listing that a 1C1 is KNOWN WITH AN M....

So NO... The M alone doesn't define it. The combination of the obverse AND the M do...
That's not the listing, that the VAMworld page.
And now you're arguing semantics.
"There is no E"...

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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:54 pm

TheYokel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:45 pm
impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:44 pm
TheYokel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:41 pm


The VAM/pair follows a progression. The clashes do not. That was the meaning.

Depends on which obverse he has. If it's a 1C2 obverse with no M... Then he has a new listing for the un-transfered 1C2 without the M.

You can't revert a completely different obverse to 1C1. It even says in the listing that a 1C1 is KNOWN WITH AN M....

So NO... The M alone doesn't define it. The combination of the obverse AND the M do...
That's not the listing, that the VAMworld page.
And now you're arguing semantics.
Somewhere I mentioned not knowing what we don't know... believing this is semantics is exactly what I was referring to. The listing is the listing, period. VAMworld has the listing, but then there is a WHOLE LOT of space for opinion. The LISTING for 1c2 is "Buffed Reverse, Reverse Clashed M"
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by TheYokel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:00 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:54 pm
TheYokel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:45 pm
impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:44 pm

That's not the listing, that the VAMworld page.
And now you're arguing semantics.
Somewhere I mentioned not knowing what we don't know... believing this is semantics is exactly what I was referring to. The listing is the listing, period. VAMworld has the listing, but then there is a WHOLE LOT of space for opinion. The LISTING for 1c2 is "Buffed Reverse, Reverse Clashed M"
And the listing title for VAM7 and VAM14 are both "Doubled 18-3".

That doesn't mean they get lumped together because of a matching title.

Just because "Buffed with M" is the title doesn't mean another pair can't match the exact same title with different die details.
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by impairedsquirrel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:11 pm

TheYokel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:00 pm
impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:54 pm
TheYokel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:45 pm


And now you're arguing semantics.
Somewhere I mentioned not knowing what we don't know... believing this is semantics is exactly what I was referring to. The listing is the listing, period. VAMworld has the listing, but then there is a WHOLE LOT of space for opinion. The LISTING for 1c2 is "Buffed Reverse, Reverse Clashed M"
And the listing title for VAM7 and VAM14 are both "Doubled 18-3".

That doesn't mean they get lumped together because of a matching title.

Just because "Buffed with M" is the title doesn't mean another pair can't match the exact same title with different die details.
It's not the title, it's the listing. The others are different, not because the same digits are doubled, but because the same digits are doubled differently, identifying them as different dies.
This is my point Ant, you didn't even know that you didn't know that, so you thought you knew that.
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by TheYokel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:23 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:11 pm
TheYokel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:00 pm
impairedsquirrel wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:54 pm

Somewhere I mentioned not knowing what we don't know... believing this is semantics is exactly what I was referring to. The listing is the listing, period. VAMworld has the listing, but then there is a WHOLE LOT of space for opinion. The LISTING for 1c2 is "Buffed Reverse, Reverse Clashed M"
And the listing title for VAM7 and VAM14 are both "Doubled 18-3".

That doesn't mean they get lumped together because of a matching title.

Just because "Buffed with M" is the title doesn't mean another pair can't match the exact same title with different die details.
It's not the title, it's the listing. The others are different, not because the same digits are doubled, but because the same digits are doubled differently, identifying them as different dies.
This is my point Ant, you didn't even know that you didn't know that, so you thought you knew that.
That's not what you said. You said:

"The listing is the listing, period. VAMworld has the listing, but then there is a WHOLE LOT of space for opinion. The LISTING for 1c2 is "Buffed Reverse, Reverse Clashed M".

By your logic the 22A and 36A would be the same VAM since the obverse would fall under multiple pairs exist and the back is the "money side".

Not to mention all the die swaps in the 8TFs that would fall under "multiple pairs exist"...

So going by your "different details" theory...

If the 7 and 14 are different VAMs even though they share a reverse, but have different obverse dies that fit the same title...

...what is the logic behind grouping the 1C1 and 1C2 together just because they have the same reverse but different obverse dies with uniquely different die markers?

Would that not be the exact same scenario?

Why would LVA create different die classifications for the two doubled dates if multiple dies exist satisfies the die details?

Does he just decide it on a case-by-case basis?

If it's the details, why does a coin like the 86p V22 have completely different date placements but satisfy the same die classification? They obviously came from separate hubbings...

And if that's the case, why does the 87p V14 have about 19 dies that satisfy it?

If it comes back to the obverse coming from the same hub but progressing differently and satisfying the same classification until an event happens... Why shouldn't 1C1 and 1C2 be lumped together completely since a 1C1 has been seen with an M and they share the same III2 1 obverse and c3a reverse? Why would he differentiate the dies? Again is it just him deciding it on his own?

I'm not trying to get around the rules of the game he created... I'm trying to understand why LVA decides to change them in the middle of an inning sometimes.
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by Mhomei » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:05 am

Great pick up Patrick!
Really cool variety
Great grade.

You suck

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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by dave700x » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:15 am

lioncutter wrote: ↑
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:53 pm
Still looking for that 1C3 though.
You and me both brother.... ;)

I have an LDS 1C2 where the bulges appear around the wing tip and a couple of PL 1C1's but that DMPL EDS 1C1 and 1C4 (yes 1C4)still elude me.... :roll: :lol:
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CascadeChris
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by CascadeChris » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:05 am

Once I stop looking for a 1C3 I'll probably find a couple for you guys. Just be patient 😎 :lol:
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Re: 1883 O VAM 1C1 or 1C2?

Post by bhinkle » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:47 am

Nice pickup Patrick.
I found some pictures of my PCGSMS61, that was attributed a vam 1C2, here years ago.
As you can see the M clash, is very faint.
I hope this helps a little, Bert
Attachments
1883 O PCGSMS61 IGWT G.jpg
1883 O PCGSMS61 IGWT G.jpg (102.69 KiB) Viewed 296 times
1883 O PCGSMS61 CLASHED M W G.jpg
1883 O PCGSMS61 CLASHED M W G.jpg (101.92 KiB) Viewed 296 times
1883 O PCGSMS61 HAIR CURLS G.jpg
1883 O PCGSMS61 HAIR CURLS G.jpg (93.06 KiB) Viewed 296 times

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