Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

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rodmeader
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by rodmeader » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:05 pm

I’m in the process of photo-documenting a single clashed 1887-P VAM-3A and a double clashed VAM-3A.

I have been told that the single clashed specimen is the EDS version and that the double clashed is the LDS version. This seems to be supported by Mr. Van Allen’s Plate Photos posted to VW’s VAM-3A Page.

I purchased my single and double clashed Variety from the same seller who labeled the doubled clashed specimen as a “VAM 3a LDS”. I assume other sellers have used the same labeling or have described the double clashed specimen in that way. When I received the coins, I saw that both Morgans appeared to be of the same die state (Early or Middle Die State).
Because a clash is a die stage event, it would seem more appropriate to describe a single clashed VAM-3A as a Die Stage 1 VAM-3A and a double clashed VAM-3A as a Die Stage 2 VAM-3A.

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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:45 pm

All of the following is just my opinion, but I think we are getting into some hair-splitting scenarios.
Something I think we all need to remember is we are VAMmers, not coin collectors. What I mean by that is what we are dealing with is listable variety features, which is why, again in my opinion, the single clashed 87p v3a is the early (earlier, technically, but splitting-hairs) die state of the VAM (not the coin, because the EDS of VAM-3a is obviously VAM-3), because it came first. Same holds for the earlier Scarface example. As VAMmers, what we are looking for is a bonified Scarface, so anything that came before that is an early (again, earlier) die state than the real deal. Meanwhile, you really only see "LDS Scarface" if you are looking at a particularly late state of an H10 (so long as the presenter is being honest with themselves...).
In the end, a single clashed 3a can be an EDS because the die state actually is different in that the second clash is a sign of an older die and an H5 is an EDS Scarface because the less severe break shows that the die is not as old as an H10. Those in the know please disagree if I'm seeing this incorrectly.
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by vampicker » Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:46 pm

Think we're a little off the point here. There are times where an observation about die state and what that actually means is a critical piece of information to actually understand, and not just a hairsplitting exercise. If you are about to buy an 82-O/s VAM 4 EDS, maybe blind faith in someone else's attribution is good enough, or you could actually know for your self. Just sayin....
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by vamsterdam » Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:48 pm

There are plenty of early die state 8tf, that are late stage. The mirrors are still deep and the devices are strong, but the die has suddenly broken and has suddenly reached it’s terminal stage. The early stage had no crack or break, the next stage suddenly has a serious crack and the late stage has a terminal break. All the while, coin still has deep flat mirrors because few strikes have been made.

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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by TheYokel » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:18 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:45 pm
All of the following is just my opinion, but I think we are getting into some hair-splitting scenarios.
Something I think we all need to remember is we are VAMmers, not coin collectors.
Um...? Every listed set would be someone's collection, would it not?
impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:45 pm

What I mean by that is what we are dealing with is listable variety features, which is why, again in my opinion, the single clashed 87p v3a is the early (earlier, technically, but splitting-hairs) die state of the VAM (not the coin, because the EDS of VAM-3a is obviously VAM-3), because it came first. Same holds for the earlier Scarface example.
Negative. EDS is the die and the die only. Only...

There simply is no "EDS" for some VAMs. They came too late in the life of the die to be considered "EDS", and as such, it's impossible to label some VAMs with "EDS". That is exactly where the confusion comes from. There's "eaelier"... But EDS is a very specific definition, from everything I've learned.
impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:45 pm

As VAMmers, what we are looking for is a bonified Scarface, so anything that came before that is an early (again, earlier) die state than the real deal. Meanwhile, you really only see "LDS Scarface" if you are looking at a particularly late state of an H10 (so long as the presenter is being honest with themselves...).
Negative. JR had a great example in the 3/4/5 o/s VAMs. Inspecting an O/S in-hand, you can tell whether it's an EDS without ever looking at the mint mark in some cases. The coins surface itself can often let you know. Flipping it over is just confirmation.

Another good example is the 78 14.1 to show how the surfaces can be clues to a real EDS. The page says that up until the true 14.1 had been discovered, that a 14.1 had never been seen with PL surfaces, nor without clash marks. That meant every 14.1 til that point had been at least MDS examples.

Come to find out, a true EDS example *with* PL surfaces was found, and wouldn't you know it, it was the missing unclashed link to the progression. That made every clashed example revert to 14.1A and left the true EDS unclashed version as 14.1.

EDS is a very specific time in a dies life, and it can be used like any other clue while hunting.

Calling a coin like an H5 1B an "EDS" just because it's "earlier" than what VAMers are hunting for is a disservice to the term.
vamsterdam wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:48 pm
There are plenty of early die state 8tf, that are late stage. The mirrors are still deep and the devices are strong, but the die has suddenly broken and has suddenly reached it’s terminal stage. The early stage had no crack or break, the next stage suddenly has a serious crack and the late stage has a terminal break. All the while, coin still has deep flat mirrors because few strikes have been made.
Yes, that's how I see it also. A coin can be both late in the pairs life (if it was retired super early) and also still be EDS. The two are not exclusive.

Someone feel free to step in if I'm incorrect.
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Kissov
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by Kissov » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:49 pm

There simply is no "EDS" for some VAMs. They came too late in the life of the die to be considered "EDS", and as such, it's impossible to label some VAMs with "EDS". That is exactly where the confusion comes from. There's "eaelier"... But EDS is a very specific definition, from everything I've learned.

You are right in that there is an absolute series of die states -- things only happened one way -- that may or may not be knowable.

And there are relative die states -- based on known coins -- and those relationships change with new finds and study.

There are markers for EDS-ness and LDS-ness. All we can do is make best estimates on where in the life of a die a particular VAM occurred. And those estimates are subject to new information.

I think we can find pretty good examples of EDS coins, based on EDS markers. But I am not sure we can ever be certain we have an LDS coin, since we can never know when that die was discarded. But we can usually say that one coin is relatively earlier or later than another.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:54 pm

Oh Boy :cry:

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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by andywoj00 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:52 pm

"...There are two ways of describing die progressions. The first focuses on die wear. The description of the wear has been termed 'die state' by Delma Romines, the developer of the theory..."

"...The theory behind 'die stage' progressions has seen several revisions through the years. The general theory begins like this: When a die is first placed in use, it is perfect, that is free from 'tear.' Then as a die is used, it developes imperfections that grow steadily worse and worse until the die has to be pulled from the production line. These imperfections consist mainly of die clashes, die cracks, and die breaks..."

The RPM Book Second Edition Lincoln Cents by James Wile, PhD. pgs iv &v

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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by andywoj00 » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:57 pm

From the phpbb Coin Help Community forum:

"Die State is a point in a particular die's useful lifespan. If a die is normally used to mint a million coins then Early Die State may be the condition of the die for the first 300,000 coins struck, Middle Die State the 300,001 - 600,000th coin, Late Die State the next 300,000 and Very Late Die State the group of coins produced just before the die is retired. Not sure how to determine a die's lifespan, but this was the gist of Die State.

Die Stage is an indicator that a die marker (some defect on the die) has significantly changed. A stage includes a paired set of dies. Usually, a die develops a chip or crack, is polished, etc. and we enter a new Die Stage. Sometimes, one of the two dies are changed (obverse or reverse), and we enter a new Die Stage because the new die introduces different die markers by removing old ones. This is also how we end up with a LDS obverse and EDS reverse combination."

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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by TheYokel » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:17 pm

Kissov wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:49 pm
There simply is no "EDS" for some VAMs. They came too late in the life of the die to be considered "EDS", and as such, it's impossible to label some VAMs with "EDS". That is exactly where the confusion comes from. There's "eaelier"... But EDS is a very specific definition, from everything I've learned.

You are right in that there is an absolute series of die states -- things only happened one way -- that may or may not be knowable.

And there are relative die states -- based on known coins -- and those relationships change with new finds and study.

There are markers for EDS-ness and LDS-ness. All we can do is make best estimates on where in the life of a die a particular VAM occurred. And those estimates are subject to new information.

I think we can find pretty good examples of EDS coins, based on EDS markers. But I am not sure we can ever be certain we have an LDS coin, since we can never know when that die was discarded. But we can usually say that one coin is relatively earlier or later than another.
No need for markers. The surface itself is the marker. You can trace the die itself. A newly hubbed and polished coin will have very smooth fields (even if not true PL) where the surface oscillation and flow lines haven't started to form and cause elevations on the surface. EDS will still be relatively smooth when looking at the surface itself.

The later the die goes (barring a polish job), the more oscillations and flow lines show in the surface. To the point a really LDS field will start looking wavy, or begin deteriorating entirely.

You can tell the EDS field vs a later polish job based on known progression markers and the detail crispness.

Not a lot we can't tell, if we listen to the dies...
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:20 pm

Whether you say "poe-tay-toe" or "pa-ta-toe", the little white stickers that you put on your coins say it all. You know what it means, and you always will.

In this case, "EDS" means "Easy Diagnostic System". :roll:
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by vampicker » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:04 am

When is this actually relevant information? When you have a clear answer to that question in your own mind, this can be a useful if only occasionally used tool.
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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:25 am

I sure am glad you're here to set us all straight Ant.
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by TheYokel » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:38 am

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:25 am
I sure am glad you're here to set us all straight Ant.
Huh?

Wait. You follow me around critiquing every single post I make, and I'm in the wrong for defending my stance?

I don't mind people disagreeing with me. Just please don't take it as me be agressive or anything when I continue discussing a point. I love testing my knowledge. Don't take it personally when I'm testing it against you. No offense meant.

You'd be surprised what you learn researching invisible letters...
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:43 am

TheYokel wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:38 am
impairedsquirrel wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:25 am
I sure am glad you're here to set us all straight Ant.
Huh?

Wait. You follow me around critiquing every single post I make, and I'm in the wrong for defending my stance?

I don't mind people disagreeing with me. Just please don't take it as me be agressive or anything when I continue discussing a point. I love testing my knowledge. Don't take it personally when I'm testing it against you. No offense meant.

You'd be surprised what you learn researching invisible letters...
Maybe take a trip to the VAMworld definitions page...
And you're viewing things with a coin collector's eye. We are VAMmers. Anyone here can happily explain the difference between their VAM collection and their coin collection.
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by TheYokel » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:03 am

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:43 am
Maybe take a trip to the VAMworld definitions page...
And you're viewing things with a coin collector's eye. We are VAMmers. Anyone here can happily explain the difference between their VAM collection and their coin collection.
Not my fault the VW definitions page is wrong...

In one post you'll say that the VW listings aren't official and they aren't infallible. Now you're quoting a definition page with (by the definition) incorrect information.

That 1B example on the definitions page is the definition of Die Stage, not die state. Would actually help clear alot of this confusion up by rectifying that verbiage on that page...
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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by impairedsquirrel » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:22 am

The VW definitions page is correct as it pertains to VAMming. I'm done now Ant, good luck on your journey, bless your heart.
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by vampicker » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:26 am

Here's another example where die state was useful. This past weekend I was at the company table at the Ohio State show in beautiful Dublin, Ohio. A gentleman drove several hours to show me what he believed to be a 1964 SMS Kennedy half dollar - a very rare coin. Clearly it wasn't, but he'd spent considerable time on the internet researching the subject and had talked himself into believing he might have an example. Among the points I raised as illustrations that his piece was a odd looking but normal business strike was that his coin was clearly MDS or mid die state with moderate flow lining. That should not be present on a 'special' and very limited striking.
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by CascadeChris » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:54 am

vampicker wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:26 am
Here's another example where die state was useful. This past weekend I was at the company table at the Ohio State show in beautiful Dublin, Ohio. A gentleman drove several hours to show me what he believed to be a 1964 SMS Kennedy half dollar - a very rare coin. Clearly it wasn't, but he'd spent considerable time on the internet researching the subject and had talked himself into believing he might have an example. Among the points I raised as illustrations that his piece was a odd looking but normal business strike was that his coin was clearly MDS or mid die state with moderate flow lining. That should not be present on a 'special' and very limited striking.
I'm sure it made his belief that much stronger with Stacks selling one for over $100k recently.
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vampicker
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Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by vampicker » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:43 pm

Here's another use. Just did a large cent that appeared to be MS with a nice brown surface peppered by some black porosity. It's a well known and common variety for the date. The die state did not match the apparent stage on the coin.

Well executed counterfeit of recent origin
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