Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
User avatar
LorenAlbert
Posts: 350
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 11:19 am
Contact:

Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by LorenAlbert » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:06 am

Someone, who archived the following post from VW10, recently provided it to me. Of all posts that I have ever read on VW, I defer to this post moreso than any other. I re-post it here so that it is archived on VW20. If VAMPICKER had the time to copy/paste this content into an OP; then I would delete this post as long as there have not been any replies. Thanks Rod. Loren
The information below was provided by VAMPICKER

'Stage' and 'state' do not mean the same thing, although they are often mistakenly used interchangeably.

Die state is an observation about the age of a die within its production lifespan. EDS dies have crisp features and show little or no flow lining from use. MDS dies still retain most of their sharper detail, but flow lines are clearly present. For Morgans, most examples with strong satin luster are from dies like this. LDS dies show their age, details begin to fade and flow lining becomes pronounced.

Die stage by contrast, note different events within a die's life. These include things like clashes, polishing jobs, gouges or breaks. There can be multiple die stages within a single die state, like we see with the 21-S Thornhead. Taken further, when you consider just one die, there can be multiple marriages within a single die stage, like we see with the A1c reverse and a bunch of rare 78 8TF VAMs.

Flow Lining: During coining, the natural flow of metal is toward the rim. As the die wears, fine lines develop in the fields. If you have a few mint state pieces from a progression, put them side by side and note how the texture of the fields change. You'll see the flow lines.

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by vampicker » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:07 pm

What's funny is that I also accidentally interchanged stage and state in my explanation - "multiple marriages within a single die stage" should have been 'state'. A die swap to form a new marriage is one of those events that can define a stage demarcation even if its mate is virtually unchanged.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

Kissov
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by Kissov » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:19 am

Very clear and useful descriptions.

Is there ever a distinction made between "stages" that arise during die manufacture and stages that occur post manufacture (i.e. stages that arise in use)?

User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:54 am

Okay. I have always had trouble discerning the difference between die stages and die states, although I think sometimes I get it.

But JR, to your point:
vampicker wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:07 pm
What's funny is that I also accidentally interchanged stage and state in my explanation - "multiple marriages within a single die stage" should have been 'state'. A die swap to form a new marriage is one of those events that can define a stage demarcation even if its mate is virtually unchanged.
Couldn't it also be, "multiple marriages within a single die stage" instead of die state?

I am thinking of the obverse die of the 1904-O V28A, V32 and V2A. All three VAMs share the same obverse die with a clash episode (die stage), but have different marriages with reverse dies.

HELP!!

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by vampicker » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:49 am

Kissov wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:19 am


Is there ever a distinction made between "stages" that arise during die manufacture and stages that occur post manufacture (i.e. stages that arise in use)?
No such animal, but hub stages are a completely different subject.
LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:54 am
Couldn't it also be, "multiple marriages within a single die stage" instead of die state?
If you look at the CONECA listings, a die swap is also a defining event for a stage change. For that 04-O obverse you noted, that would give you at least 4 clear stages , the unclashed version of V28, the initial clash for V28A, the swap to form V32, then another swap for V2A. Other than mirrors, there's not much difference in the obverse between the 28A and 32, but this otherwise grey transition has a black and white dividing line at the reverse swap.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
raynat3
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 1:44 am

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by raynat3 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:38 am

Just to be clear, is EDS early die stage or state? I always thought state.

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by vampicker » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:28 am

EDS is early die state.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

User avatar
LorenAlbert
Posts: 350
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 11:19 am
Contact:

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by LorenAlbert » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:09 pm

Stages, it seems, refect discreet (digital) events. States, it seems, reflect continuous (analog) events. I often am assessing the mint ordering of a progression within a die pair that may entail ordering several coins. I use every hint available. Including, the extent and girth of a crack - an analog process? Without vigilance, it is tempting to use EDS, MDS, LDS as measures of relative mint order, when, in fact, a crack may grow within a single state?

A common source of confusion may result from comments on the VW topic pages that identify transition of die state based on a discrete event. I am not advocating anything be changed, but, it is easy to mistakenly infer causality when correlation is the relationship.

User avatar
vampicker
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:48 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by vampicker » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:56 pm

A simple version of it is something like this - 'state' is an expression of relative die wear. All of the other significant events in a die's lifespan are stages. Some of these events are instantaneous, like clashes or die swaps. Others are more gradual like most breaks.
I hate to point this out, but a change in die state is typically also cataloged as a stage. You'll see this in the CONECA listings where the reported examples were mid or late die state, so there will be 'unverified' listings of stages only described as EDS or MDS.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

Kissov
Posts: 259
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by Kissov » Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:53 pm

No such animal, but hub stages are a completely different subject.
Please, tell me more.

dave700x
Posts: 351
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:36 am
Location: Texas

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by dave700x » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:34 pm

So am I correct in thinking a die clash event that results in letter transfer is a die stage change but the eventual eroding away of the letter transfer is a die state change? :geek:
1883-O nut

User avatar
CascadeChris
Posts: 2003
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 10:41 pm

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by CascadeChris » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:48 pm

[Insert the collective outrage of the TDITD guys here]
Alonzi VW 2.0!

User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:00 pm

No outrage here. TDITD still stands. Die stages and die states do not conflict with TDITD.

User avatar
TheYokel
Posts: 1552
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:23 am
Location: Death Valley (seriously)

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by TheYokel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:09 pm

State is the age of the die...

Stage is the age/progression of the details.

The only reason there's confusion is because of the use of nomenclature on coins like the 1B where it's just being used to describe the details and not the die. EDS should always refer to the earliest strikes off a die pair. EDS to me means original DMPL/PL or right after. EDS means it was just hubbed and very early in its usage. When people use "EDS" to describe an H5 Scarface, we get confusion. You don't (or shouldn't) use "EDS" to describe anything but the die.

PCGS and NGC are the main reason we have this confusion, imo. They will plaster "EDS" on just about anything.

The phrase "earlier die state" in most official listings just means that something came before it chronologically... Not necessarily that it is referring to an actual EDS coin...
"There is no E"...

Top 100: 27 -- Hot 50: 6 -- Top 50: 4 -- Elite 30: 2 -- K12: 2

User avatar
impairedsquirrel
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Happy Valley, USA

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by impairedsquirrel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:15 pm

What becomes of us when we don't even understand what we do not understand??? :roll:
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

User avatar
TheYokel
Posts: 1552
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:23 am
Location: Death Valley (seriously)

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by TheYokel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:34 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:15 pm
What becomes of us when we don't even understand what we do not understand??? :roll:
I'm not understanding which understanding you're misunderstanding, lol :lol: ...
"There is no E"...

Top 100: 27 -- Hot 50: 6 -- Top 50: 4 -- Elite 30: 2 -- K12: 2

User avatar
impairedsquirrel
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Happy Valley, USA

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by impairedsquirrel » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:38 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:34 pm
impairedsquirrel wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:15 pm
What becomes of us when we don't even understand what we do not understand??? :roll:
I'm not understanding which understanding you're misunderstanding, lol :lol: ...
And herein lies... nevermind...
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

User avatar
CascadeChris
Posts: 2003
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 10:41 pm

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by CascadeChris » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:30 am

Who on 1st reverse base?
Alonzi VW 2.0!

User avatar
LateDateMorganGuy
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:11 am

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:39 am

I need a relief pitcher................... of Birra ;)

User avatar
raynat3
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 1:44 am

Re: Die Stage versus Die State from VW10 Board by VAMPICKER

Post by raynat3 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:57 am

All I know is that there is a first time a die/die pair is used and a last time a die/pair is used.
Time is a sequential thing so when you describe something that has happened to a die it is somewhere on that time line from beginning to end.

Truly understanding where on that time line an event takes place can only come from studying many coins side by side as Alan has preached for years.

And the issues with listings, some of which were brought up in this thread, is because folks do not do enough studying of multiple coins before sending just one of them in to Leroy for listing.

Post Reply