Walk Me Through It...

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
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TheYokel
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Walk Me Through It...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:50 am

Evening VW.

I got asked to show my process of aligning marks and clash strength etc, so figured I'd make it a communal effort. Y'all don't like when I post new threads, but y'all also don't like me bringing up me sending any coins in for a second opinion... So i thought y'all might walk me through one.

Lemme know when I reach a point you would have ruled this one out. It's basically step-by-step what I see and look for before posting a coin for y'alls opinion... So hopefully this will help me cut off bad habits during the actual process, and not after I've posted a coin and aggravated someone.

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So I'll start by making an overlay and aligning the neck/wing/cap/cotton bolls. I don't try to align any other marks at this point, only whats plainly visible.

Next I'll see if any wreath/mint mark transfer happened. I'll note on the overlay how much is supposed to be showing, and check against the coin.

Only after making sure all the other marks line up and that the overlay is aligned correctly to the actual coin, do I note where the letters are supposed to be; only then do I look at the tailfeathers and see if anything is there.

I will ignore any and all marks not in the vicinity of where the dies prove they should be...

...and then I get stuck and ask for help.

Where in this line of research should I have pulled the plug? (Not before it started... At least three of you were typing that :lol: )

But if I'm going to seriously be undertaking this hunt, I need to know how to do it without pissing people off before I get the ok for someone else to see one of my coins. I can't do the hunt in private because you don't want me sending them blind without approval. So i need to know how to properly ask for approval without aggregating everyone.

It's a Catch-22: Can't send to Leroy without approval; Can't ask for approval without upsetting everyone.

Some of you seem like you don't like me being a part of the VAM communuty, but I am, so I'd like to be a positive contributing factor to it and not seen as the black sheep of the family.

I keep most of my research behind closed doors so that I don't upset the tribe, but when I have a genuine curiosity, if I can't submit it for an opinion... I rely on yall.

And i love asking y'all for advice. I say all the time I learn as much from no's as I do yes"s...
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It's coming... :popcorn:

lured_in_again
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by lured_in_again » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:41 am

Perhaps I am suggesting something you have already done.... but here goes my take......With your desire to find a new "E" clash, I would suggest you get a list of all known "E" clashes and compare photos of "prime" clash areas. The area of the cap to the right of the wheat is one of the most telling giveaways for a clashed "E" Between that point and where there is often times a clash mark in front of the forehead is where the "E" is. If clashing shows up in those 2 areas, there is a possibility of an "E". If either one of those 2 clash areas is very lightly clashed or not at all, the chances of an "E" become pretty remote...... along those lines, I would then post those photos (and others that might suggest a possible "E" clash) here on VW. A large number of members here are very good at determining the possibility of an "E" existing on a given coin. None of us are the ultimate authority in the end, but the experienced members on here shouldn't be taken lightly. It's kind of a "been there, done that" mentality. If by chance, the coin in question would happen to be a possible new "E" VAM, you would be urged to send it in. Lastly, I would also suggest you post the date and MM of all your "possible E" coins as you show the photos. The possibility of someone getting a jump on you to send the new one to LVA is very remote, but having a date / mm will allow members to eliminate some "possible E's" just due to the knowledge that many of them have made the trip to LVA before. Sorry for the long winded reply, but just my 2 cents worth.

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TheYokel
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:14 am

lured_in_again wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:41 am
Perhaps I am suggesting something you have already done.... but here goes my take......With your desire to find a new "E" clash, I would suggest you get a list of all known "E" clashes and compare photos of "prime" clash areas. The area of the cap to the right of the wheat is one of the most telling giveaways for a clashed "E" Between that point and where there is often times a clash mark in front of the forehead is where the "E" is. If clashing shows up in those 2 areas, there is a possibility of an "E". If either one of those 2 clash areas is very lightly clashed or not at all, the chances of an "E" become pretty remote...... along those lines, I would then post those photos (and others that might suggest a possible "E" clash) here on VW. A large number of members here are very good at determining the possibility of an "E" existing on a given coin. None of us are the ultimate authority in the end, but the experienced members on here shouldn't be taken lightly. It's kind of a "been there, done that" mentality. If by chance, the coin in question would happen to be a possible new "E" VAM, you would be urged to send it in. Lastly, I would also suggest you post the date and MM of all your "possible E" coins as you show the photos. The possibility of someone getting a jump on you to send the new one to LVA is very remote, but having a date / mm will allow members to eliminate some "possible E's" just due to the knowledge that many of them have made the trip to LVA before. Sorry for the long winded reply, but just my 2 cents worth.
No apologies, I've been looking for long winded replies the entire time.

I actually own a few examples of some E's. Bought a few from members on here... Found a few hunting... It's slowly growing :) I've come to realize there are some ridiculously priced E's... So the full set may take a while :lol: .

Never knew about the forehead, I'll be keeping a closer eye on that area.

I try to check for the wheat clash on all of them though. Seems like for every 36A with some sweet wreath transfer, there's an 84p that barely shows anything. The angle seems to have a whole lot to do with it. The lower on the neck the wing clash is, the better the wheat transfer. Coins like the 84p where the alignment was high on the neck get weaker and weaker with the cap transfer, or it's found in different locations around the cap due to the strike angle...

The 89p V39A is a good example of a high clash leaving no wheat transfer.

...Then you get the 87p 1B which seems like it should have some decent wheat transfer, but seems to range from fairly boring on well-struck coins to almost invisible on others.

I guess I mean to say I'll use the usual suspects to hunt for potential candidates, but won't necessarily rule a coin out if it has enough other corresponding marks on it.

Thank you for the reply. I hope I've helped to explain some of my rationale in my endeavour...
It's coming... :popcorn:

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TheYokel
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:44 am

Like here's my favorite secret project. I'm waiting to find a coin with harsher clash marks on the obverse... But I'm starting to think it might have been a swap job. The year was rife with them. I know the VAM and I'm researching the history of the dies... But something like this I feel like would benefit from a second set of eyes. It would at least tell me if I'm hunting an imaginary culprit...
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CascadeChris
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by CascadeChris » Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:29 pm

Yokel, have you been to the 88p v12B page yet? If not, check it out and digest..
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LorenAlbert
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by LorenAlbert » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:57 pm


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TheYokel
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:07 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:29 pm
Yokel, have you been to the 88p v12B page yet? If not, check it out and digest..
VAM 12 shows the line in the G already being present. 12A adds the N. That would mean that the N clash would have caused the E to get on the 12B. I don't even have to make an overlay to say that is in the wrong spot...
It's coming... :popcorn:

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CascadeChris
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by CascadeChris » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:08 pm

You're missing the point bro. Think less technically, less analytically..
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LorenAlbert
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by LorenAlbert » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:19 pm

I don't have time to think through the ramification of the marriages, but it seems unlikely that Algot's LFCPs belong on the 1888-P_VAM-12 page. There would need to be a third clash event smack on register. Plus, an n tic may show on Algot's LFCP. I don't see overpolishing on Algot's LFCP. The V12A must have been an earlier minting than 12 (repaired). A primary and a reverted 12 may be possible?

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TheYokel
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:38 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:08 pm
You're missing the point bro. Think less technically, less analytically..
Really, all I'm getting out of the 12B page is pareidolia. @vampicker walked me through enough clash angles a few months ago, that my mind doesn't see anything on the 12B as even being a possible E. A really cool phantom, yes... But for an E to be in that gap and almost vertical, the neck clash would be above her chin and dang near between the G-o in God...

Without a die swap (which the previous clash being present proves it wasn't swapped), that E was an impossibility from the start. Someone was VAM'ing with more emotion and less science... That's all I see.

Less analytical? It's been brow-beaten into me to be as precise and technical as humanly possible while transfer hunting... That was JR's literal first lesson for me...
It's coming... :popcorn:

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:48 pm

Okay, let me try a different angle...
Ant, you have a couple E clashers, you know what a real clashed E looks like, so the point we're trying to get you to understand now is: If you have to ask it isn't there.
Not to say that this is Chris's point, but that "12b" listing is just one example of someone convincing Leroy that something exists which doesn't.
I should add that it doesn't matter if it's a false conclusion drawn through emotion or science, it's still a false conclusion.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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Longstrider
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by Longstrider » Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:11 pm

I don't know squat about clashes. The only thing I know to, maybe, help, is: Never Give Up! Good luck
John🐍 From The Dark Side

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TheYokel
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:21 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:48 pm
Okay, let me try a different angle...
Ant, you have a couple E clashers, you know what a real clashed E looks like, so the point we're trying to get you to understand now is: If you have to ask it isn't there.
Not to say that this is Chris's point, but that "12b" listing is just one example of someone convincing Leroy that something exists which doesn't.
I should add that it doesn't matter if it's a false conclusion drawn through emotion or science, it's still a false conclusion.
I'm listening, and I do understand the position you're coming from. I promise I'm not ignoring what you tell me. It's not that i don't see what the group means by "look at the ones you have"...

...It's that for every 1A1 or 2A i look at, I know there's an 80p 33A or an 89cc 4A lurking around that wasn't noticed for 40 years. Heck, even Leroy himself didn't notice the 78p 84A until a decade ago. I don't expect to find a solid E. It would be amazing, but I believe that boat has sailed. You have to think, Leroy himself was cataloguing alot of these as they were released. I'm sure he was looking :lol:

There is definitely another 36A or some such full-bodied weak E floating out there though. It's almost like you all don't want one to be found...

"If you have to ask"... That's why I've started taking photos from a 7x max distance and not overmagnifying the surface. Figure it helps rule out die wear and mild surface distortions. If I can't get an angle correct to see a mark with my naked eyes and no magnification, i set it aside and never ask about it. You won't see me post just a single 12x shot of a wavy surface anymore. Promise. I'll at least include a wide-angle shot to show a higher degree of surface elevation, etc...
Longstrider wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:11 pm
I don't know squat about clashes. The only thing I know to, maybe, help, is: Never Give Up! Good luck
John🐍 From The Dark Side
Thank you John. Moby Dick might take the Pequod and Ahab down with him; Ishmael lived to tell the tale. At least people knew the whale was real... :?
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CascadeChris
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by CascadeChris » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:52 pm

Rob hit the nail on the head.

Ant, please, forget about your damn E obsession. You've been so much better (relatively) these last couple of months. We thought you took our advise and forgotten about Es. Please, for the love of everything holy forget about the darn Es for now. If you think you see something and must know, send it to Messydesk. The instructions to do that are at www.varslab.com for a second in-hand opinion. All these "I think I see it, here are a million pics" threads are insane and cause others to get aggravated with you. Heeding this advise would be in your best interest bro. We all see hints that you can make a great VAMmer some day but then you wipe all that out with us talking about a nothing coin for over a week. Put yourself in our shoes. Just send the darn coin to JB and use the forum for other stuff. E's just aren't your thing bro, not yet anyway.
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LorenAlbert
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by LorenAlbert » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:28 pm

Hi Ant,
The reverse die can be identified by the inside bow loop. I am surprised that someone has not done so. It looks strikingly familiar. Loren
Last edited by LorenAlbert on Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TheYokel
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:32 pm

LorenAlbert wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:28 pm
Hi Ant,
The reverse die can be identified based on the inside bow loop. I am surprised that someone has not done so. Loren
Then you understand the possibility of the swap theory...? Or it's out of left field to think?
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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:43 pm

Here's the thing, Leroy DIDN'T look for such things much because letter transfer clashes didn't really become popular until Dr.Kimpton did his work on the subject. In other words if the E (or the I or n or G or u or s or t or M or o or d or W or e...) wasn't strong Leroy (or anyone else, until Mark came along) didn't care much about it.
Your bringing up the 89-CC is interesting because, even 16 yrs after being listed, no one can determine whether it actually exists with an E clash... Ask me why it was listed then... I'm glad you asked, it was listed because someone saw "something" in the right place and convinced Leroy it was the remnant of an E. Several other examples with the clashing have been studied since and no one can say whether the E is there or not. This is why you frustrate me personally with all of these "I think I see it, can you see it?!?" coins. If you could really see it, you wouldn't have to ask and we wouldn't have to worry about having another bastard child phantom E to create a forever hole in our E clash sets (E clashers are among the top 10 most popular sets in the SSDC registry). The rash of "tick of the n" clashes listed more recently bother me just as much. IMO, to be listed a positive ID of the letter in question should be required. So TL/DR?
If you have to ask, it isn't there.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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TheYokel
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:49 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:52 pm
Rob hit the nail on the head.

Ant, please, forget about your damn E obsession. You've been so much better (relatively) these last couple of months. We thought you took our advise and forgotten about Es. Please, for the love of everything holy forget about the darn Es for now. If you think you see something and must know, send it to Messydesk. The instructions to do that are at www.varslab.com for a second in-hand opinion. All these "I think I see it, here are a million pics" threads are insane and cause others to get aggravated with you. Heeding this advise would be in your best interest bro. We all see hints that you can make a great VAMmer some day but then you wipe all that out with us talking about a nothing coin for over a week. Put yourself in our shoes. Just send the darn coin to JB and use the forum for other stuff. E's just aren't your thing bro, not yet anyway.
(In jest) How dare you sully the E... :lol:

I feel I've tempered my addiction fairly well over the last 4 months... It's like purge week... I have to let all of this out at some point :lol:

Strange, though, that the more researched I become... The more steadfast y'all are against my hunt? Seems y'all were happier when I was posting unclashed coins my first week... :lol:

I'll get it out of my system for another few months while I read up and acquire some more in-hand knowledge. You won't see anymore "maybes" for a while after this. Promise. :geek:

-🐜
It's coming... :popcorn:

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LorenAlbert
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by LorenAlbert » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:02 pm

Two things.
First, as we previously discussed, the 83O36B; this die stage is explicitly attributed to not have an E when, in fact, with a quality loupe and lighting, you can see that the E was not entirely polished away. Thus, should the 36B be considered a clashed E stage? I am neutral. I have about a roll of them. The E is there, but I am not beating a drum about it. I would much rather beat a drum that the 36B should be attributed as a reverted 36. My spirit to apply logic to attribution has become dampened. I may send a few reverted 36s (1H/36B) to Rod. It might be interesting to see if he can capture the E with his photography.

Second, in lieu of the 88PV12B debacle, even if you are on to the remnant of an E; should it be attributed? I think not. It is pique enough that I would like to see what Rod could do with it. Not from the standpoint of attribution, but from an academic standpoint. If Rod could show a convincing remnant, then you could be encouraged to further search for a favorable stage.

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TheYokel
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Re: Walk Me Through It...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:20 pm

LorenAlbert wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:02 pm
Two things.
First, as we previously discussed, the 83O36B; this die stage is explicitly attributed to not have an E when, in fact, with a quality loupe and lighting, you can see that the E was not entirely polished away. Thus, should the 36B be considered a clashed E stage? I am neutral. I have about a roll of them. The E is there, but I am not beating a drum about it. I would much rather beat a drum that the 36B should be attributed as a reverted 36. My spirit to apply logic to attribution has become dampened. I may send a few reverted 36s (36B) to Rod. It might be interesting to see if he can capture the E with his photography.

Second, in lieu of the 88PV12B debacle, even if you are on to the remnant of an E; should it be attributed? I think not. It is pique enough that I would like to see what Rod could do with it. Not from the standpoint of attribution, but from an academic standpoint. If Rod could show a convincing remnant, then you could be encouraged to further search for a favorable stage.

Folks fear that LVA, but not the gatekeepers, might make a mistake. Odd.
Mmm. This one is so much better than a 36B. It has definitive markings of a separate but same classification reverse. As in, the mark on the reverse defines the VAM. The bow really does look the same though, doesn't it? Want to see it? :ugeek:
impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:43 pm
Here's the thing, Leroy DIDN'T look for such things much because letter transfer clashes didn't really become popular until Dr.Kimpton did his work on the subject. In other words if the E (or the I or n or G or u or s or t or M or o or d or W or e...) wasn't strong Leroy (or anyone else, until Mark came along) didn't care much about it.
Your bringing up the 89-CC is interesting because, even 16 yrs after being listed, no one can determine whether it actually exists with an E clash... Ask me why it was listed then... I'm glad you asked, it was listed because someone saw "something" in the right place and convinced Leroy it was the remnant of an E. Several other examples with the clashing have been studied since and no one can say whether the E is there or not. This is why you frustrate me personally with all of these "I think I see it, can you see it?!?" coins. If you could really see it, you wouldn't have to ask and we wouldn't have to worry about having another bastard child phantom E to create a forever hole in our E clash sets (E clashers are among the top 10 most popular sets in the SSDC registry). The rash of "tick of the n" clashes listed more recently bother me just as much. IMO, to be listed a positive ID of the letter in question should be required. So TL/DR?
If you have to ask, it isn't there.
With only 350k total 89cc it's entirely possible there's only a couple out there, or that the ones that are might be too worn to see.

22million 89p minted and we've seen what? Six examples of a 23A?

If the main fear is me actually getting a listing for a questionable coin, it's not like I wouldn't instantly offer it up for a second opinion...
It's coming... :popcorn:

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