Is there a vam world price Guide

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
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JackBnimble01
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Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by JackBnimble01 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:48 pm

Is there one?
If not, how are vams priced?
At the shows noticed MAny dealers
Are 60 plus years old, most
Don’t seem interested in vams
With the exception of
O/cc
O/s
Or spitting eagle!
Anyone have any thoughts
I love the 80/ rev 78 cc seems like
A sleeper to me, in gsa!

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...kenny
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by ...kenny » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:58 pm

VAMView is the only guide in print from 2015. There is one in the works I believe. Denis Halladay is keeping records of VAMs sold. But, a coin is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it :-)...kenny
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my.........Ah........Uhm........something, something, something..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Vam-mysterio
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by Vam-mysterio » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:37 pm

If a respectable price guide
Comes out
We should respect and avide
By what it states
We’re all grown ups here,
All in favor......
Say ai
opposed...

collectinsince65
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by collectinsince65 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:09 pm

Ai

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:39 pm

Since I am one of the naysayers, here are some things to think about.

1. If the guide was based solely on actual sale prices, that can be documented (such as Dennis' database), without bias on "WHAT A COIN SHOULD BE WORTH", then I might buy in.
2. The last price guide was supposedly based on PCGS graded coins. We were all told that if a coin was in another TPG/TPA holder, to discount the price guide. If I was affiliated with one of the other TPG/TPAs, I would be PO'd. Now, granted the market places higher prices on PCGS coins for some reason, but how to discount prices for other TPG/TPA holdered coins is subjective at best.
3. If prices are based on averages of actual sales prices, and not based on what holder it is in, then maybe it could be credible.
4. How far back do you go in actual sales prices to base the price guide on? We all know, or should know, that prices are lower now than 10 years ago. Do you go back 2 years, 4 years, 6 years, etc.? This would be a subjective decision as well.
5. I would suggest that only VAMs in the major lists be included. This implies they would likely be widely collected. Other VAMs, while cool in their own right, may only have a few folks interested. Once the few folks interested get an example, then the market falls off for them and nobody cares.

I am in the camp that if someone wants to know what a VAM is worth, research recent auction archives and decide for yourself. As has been said, a coin is only worth what a willing buyer and seller agree to on price at a given time.

As for me, I generally look at what grey sheet says, and decide on what multiple of a premium I think is fair based on the given VAM characteristics.

Again, just some things to think about.

morganman
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by morganman » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:01 pm

So many challenges/objections to a price guide, but withot one the Vams thing is in real trouble,
Folks interested have a hard time figuring real values and can easily get hosed.
IMHO= If one develops it must be based on actual sold comparables and not pie in sky values.
I agree that only premium valued vams need be included and thousands of others need not be
included, due to NO premiums.

premium $ vams need exposure and collectors deserve a valid reputable based pricing guide
until such guide is available vams & collectors will suffer the in adequate valuations & lack therof
All in IMHO
:|

DHalladay
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by DHalladay » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:04 pm

>> I am in the camp that if someone wants to know what a VAM is worth, research recent auction archives and decide for yourself. As has been said, a coin is only worth what a willing buyer and seller agree to on price at a given time. <<


I am also very solidly in this camp. And as one who has collected data on almost 50,000 actual VAM sales, I have some pretty harsh opinions about price guides in general:

1. First and foremost, they are a crutch for people who are unwilling to put in the time and work to familiarize themselves with prices for a particular coin. Anyone who relies on someone else's value guesses is asking to be disappointed. It's just a matter of what percentage of the time that will happen and to what degree. But rest assured it will happen.

2. The overwhelming majority of VAMs have no value premium over their generic counterparts. My wildass guess is there are only 200-300 VAMs that reliably bring a meaningful premium. "Bidiots" do occasionally pop up in auctions who push common VAMs to ridiculous levels, but they are outliers in the big picture of things.

3. In a perfect world, there would be at least 5 sales data points for every "meaningful" VAM in every grade within the last 3 years. But outside of essentially meaningless VAMs that are so common they can be found in multiples at every decent size show, that kind of sales data doesn't exist – often not in any one grade and never in all of them.

4. Price guides are a reasonably strong reflection of what did happen in the past, but a total guess about what will happen in the future.

5. The VAM market is profoundly thin compared to the Morgan and Peace dollar markets as a whole, which means if 1 or 2 or 3 examples of a key coin come to market in a short period of time and bring strong money, there may not be a 4th person out there who cares a whole lot or who is able to pay at those levels.

6. What is any VAM "worth" to a collector who can't afford it? Or to a collector who already has one (or three)? Feel confident about whatever melt is, but beyond that everyone will likely have a different opinion.

7. The number of variables in play when trying to guess a coin's value is high. Which TPG is involved is just one of the huge ones. Each and every coin's individual originality and eye appeal are massive. And what about plus grades? What about CAC stickers?

8. Above all may be what each potential buyer defines as attractive and nice for the grade – and they all tend to be different.

9. There is no "one size fits all" price that can be assigned to a given VAM in a given grade, and wanting there to be one is never going to make it happen. Not if you also want accuracy. And not if you expect that every potential buyer for your coin is going to embrace what a price guide says.
When in doubt... don't.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:27 pm

I think Dennis said it best, especially coming from the guy who tracks sales, and has for a long, long time.

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CascadeChris
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by CascadeChris » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:41 pm

Dennis just laid the reality hammer down. Very eloquent, cogent and concise 👍🏻
Alonzi VW 2.0!

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messydesk
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by messydesk » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:50 pm

There's a bit of a Catch-22 with value guides. You can't publish a meaningful premium on a coin if the isn't a sign of a somewhat stable market in them, and it's difficult to buy and sell a coin for a meaningful premium without guidance. This isn't unique to VAMs, either.

There is valuation guidance being added to the SSDC registry. As far as I know, Ash and John Coxe want to unveil this at the ANA show. The National Silver Dollar Roundtable (NSDR), a dealer network, has dealers interested in making inroads into the VAM market. The presence of valuation guidance will give them a starting point pricing and will give them more confidence to participate in a two-way market in premium VAMs. Perhaps @ashmore86 or @alefzero would care to comment.
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TheYokel
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by TheYokel » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:04 pm

If the best coins get sold at auction, how would we be able to abide by the price guide?

Buyers bid. Where it ends is anyones guess.

I'd support a price guide and buy a copy though. Would be great for eBay buyers/sellers.

Markets are living creatures, we can't force it to follow our guide.

There's always going to be that outlying sale where two bidders need the same coin to finish their registry list, and now everyone thinks their 83 VAM-10 is worth $2000...
"There is no E"...

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Vam-mysterio
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by Vam-mysterio » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:57 pm

Well said Dennis,Allan,
Yokel:
I will also support and buy the vam price guide,
But to start it needs to list only well known listed vams, like allan said

morganman
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by morganman » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:07 am

Im sure as H not interested in researching auction archives- probally dont know how-
The time /effort is prohibitive. Dennis brings up the real issues - so its a tough issue

Guess i will forget vams and stay with hard assets like silver that one can liquidate in a phone call
Numismatcs liquidity really sucks the last 3 yrs and looking to get worse IMHO
This all is depressing - and i have much more to lose or gain than most anyone here simply
due to numbers of coins owned.
:|

Mhomei
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by Mhomei » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:45 am

It's all about control for numismatic professionals and it's all about collectability
if your a collector.

If your a collector buy/collect what you like
And what you can afford.

If your a dealer than buy low and sell high

Since history always seems to repeat itself
Than those interested in guide should heed Dennis H. advice.

With the SSDC hopping into values arena
I would caution anyone using it, to not rely on it as a single source of info.

The points that SSDC already assigns to varieties which are the most collectable
And not necessarily rare or scarce.

And many with very few points are more rare and more scarce than plenty of the list coins.

8TF varieties are in a league of there own and there points are probably the most accurate.
Along with 79S rev 78 varieties and 78CC.
But 78S,80P,80 O, varieties need quite a few point adjustments.

JohnGoldsmith
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by JohnGoldsmith » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:09 am

As I have stated before. VAM collectors are the biggest bunch of cheapskates on the planet. I had a nice VAM in a PCGS holder, 1/3 of the last VAM price guide. I was asked by one person how much and I told them. Of course no sale occurred. VAMmers like to sale for the price guide but want to buy at common.
Unless VAM collectors back the price guide with actual sales among us what good is it?

pete$298
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by pete$298 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:24 am

Only been here a short while and have no credibility but the whole thing in this day and time is it is all about the money. I think it would be great to have guide lines but when the day ends we are all going to pay what our heart or ego tells us. I've got a bucket full of coins that I thought were bought right but??? I'm really enjoying looking through the bucket and trying to find VAMs and I really value what I am learning here but I realized some time ago that I need to stick with what helped me buy the coins and not try to outsmart the guys that sell them. :D

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:35 am

This may come as a shock to some, but I say let the SSDC come up with some pricing guidance, and let's see what it looks like before we all poo-poo the idea. Maybe it will be awesome?

My previous comments were made towards the last attempt.

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Is there a vam world price Guide

Post by impairedsquirrel » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:31 am

For my two cents I agree that one of the issues with the VAMview was trying to list too many VAMs, I agree that any new effort would serve us best if the focus was kept on the list VAMs and the ones everyone knows are tough and cool (R & I ;) ) and not included in the list sets (98-O v20 and 21-S strong v15e are two that come to mind...).
I agree that we should see what the SSDC comes up with before we go chuckin' goonies at them too.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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