1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

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weth
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1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by weth » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:21 pm

Hi gang,

So as a result of an exchange with Dennis it appears that 1921P VAM 6 and VAM 91 are identical. I have the 2013 VAM 6 revision coin, and just recently posted LVA's plate photos on the VAM 6 page. I intend to address this with LVA, and suspect that one of the two listings may be eliminated.

On the pages for 1921P VAM 1i and VAM 1AE, it is acknowledged in the comments section that these are the same die; VAM 1AE is before the pitting, and VAM 1i is with pitting. Is anyone addressing this with LVA already? If not, does anyone have a decent VAM 1AE example that I can borrow? I already have a decent 1i for comparison. I would think the listings should be concatenated (perhaps the VAM 1AE becomes VAM 1i1 and the pitted version becomes VAM 1i2...).

DHalladay
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by DHalladay » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:33 pm

I wish I could help, but I don't have a 1AE. :cry:
When in doubt... don't.

crabscrape
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by crabscrape » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:55 pm

Tom,
Would like to help but don't have a 1AE.

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ljs123
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by ljs123 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:26 pm

I can hear Alice saying "Kill, Kill, Kill".
Yes I know it was the dude and not Alice. But you might get the reference.

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CascadeChris
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by CascadeChris » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:32 pm

Hit up @fogie he has a 1AE in PCI 64, I believe.
Alonzi VW 2.0!

weth
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by weth » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:48 am

ljs123 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:26 pm
I can hear Alice saying "Kill, Kill, Kill".
Yes I know it was the dude and not Alice. But you might get the reference.
We was both jumpin up and down yellin "Kill! Kill! Kill!"

Kills are soooo much more satisfying than "discoveries". I want to see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth! Eat dead, burnt bodies!

I'll reach out to @fogie and see if we can work something out! Thanks, all!

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TheYokel
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by TheYokel » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:56 am

weth wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:48 am
ljs123 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:26 pm
I can hear Alice saying "Kill, Kill, Kill".
Yes I know it was the dude and not Alice. But you might get the reference.
We was both jumpin up and down yellin "Kill! Kill! Kill!"

Kills are soooo much more satisfying than "discoveries". I want to see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth! Eat dead, burnt bodies!

I'll reach out to @fogie and see if we can work something out! Thanks, all!
I've felt seriously bad for the 2 I've pointed to kill...

...nothing nice about killing an active member's listing :(
"There is no E"...

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DHalladay
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by DHalladay » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:24 am

With 446 coins currently in the 1921-P SSDC set (and Fogie hasn't added the 3 newest ones yet), killing duplicate listings has become way to boost our completion percentages – by reducing the size of the set! :lol:
When in doubt... don't.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:31 am

I have asked this question before, "Why are kills necessary in the first place?"

Think about it. I never get an answer.

I could pontificate, and stand on my soapbox, again. But I won't.

But nonetheless, kills are very satisfying. Kudos to those that find ways.

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ljs123
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by ljs123 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:39 am

Kills are much more satisfying.
I have several kills in the 21-Ps. I don't feel bad at all about helping to make the listings more accurate.
It was not easy to find the base pair of the 3O Goldfish, let alone tie 4 different VAMs together as the same die pair for the 3O Goldfish.
That is one of the most well known 21-Ps, and no one else figured it out.

weth
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by weth » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:06 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:31 am
I have asked this question before, "Why are kills necessary in the first place?"

Think about it. I never get an answer.
Kills are necessary because the coins observed by LVA are random, out-of-sequence, and uncorrelated, fit into a hierarchy as best as can be determined at the time. It is only through the observation of multiple examples that one can determine the nature and progression of a die. I totally forgive LVA for not associating an LDS example with an EDS example submitted years later. Only when one examines them side by side might one deduce that correlation; if you had only one and not the other, you likely can't make that connection.

If only LVA kept the actual coins submitted instead of a couple photos, it could all be so much clearer...

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:19 am

Tom, thanks for the reply. I agree with you totally.
weth wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:06 am
If only LVA kept the actual coins submitted instead of a couple photos, it could all be so much clearer...
Hum, shouldn't we as hobbyists try to do that for him rather than send him random coins as onesies?

Die studies folks, die studies.

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TheYokel
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by TheYokel » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:34 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:19 am
Tom, thanks for the reply. I agree with you totally.
weth wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:06 am
If only LVA kept the actual coins submitted instead of a couple photos, it could all be so much clearer...
Hum, shouldn't we as hobbyists try to do that for him rather than send him random coins as onesies?

Die studies folks, die studies.
Gotta make that sweet sweet 50% with the DC label...

:?
"There is no E"...

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weth
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by weth » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:18 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:19 am
Die studies folks, die studies.
Testify! You're preaching to the choir over here. It takes a certain sort of single-mindedness, though, to pursue such things. Meanwhile, you have folks still in the thrill of it all, looking for a bit of a spark, e.g. :
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:34 am
Gotta make that sweet sweet 50% with the DC label...
It's LVA's sandbox, and we're all just playing in it. If he didn't want random folks sending him random coins, or wanted to vet them in some manner, I think he'd make that clear. It amazes me that he still has the patience and perseverance to examine and catalog every darn coin he receives.

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ljs123
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by ljs123 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:26 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:31 am
I have asked this question before, "Why are kills necessary in the first place?"

Think about it. I never get an answer.

I could pontificate, and stand on my soapbox, again. But I won't.

But nonetheless, kills are very satisfying. Kudos to those that find ways.
Alan,
Another reason that kills are needed, is that even when you have all the coins in front of you, it still may be difficult to see the progression.

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TheYokel
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by TheYokel » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:31 am

weth wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:18 am
LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:19 am
Die studies folks, die studies.
Testify! You're preaching to the choir over here. It takes a certain sort of single-mindedness, though, to pursue such things. Meanwhile, you have folks still in the thrill of it all, looking for a bit of a spark, e.g. :
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:34 am
Gotta make that sweet sweet 50% with the DC label...
It's LVA's sandbox, and we're all just playing in it. If he didn't want random folks sending him random coins, or wanted to vet them in some manner, I think he'd make that clear. It amazes me that he still has the patience and perseverance to examine and catalog every darn coin he receives.
Oh i never meant to insinuate anything about LVA at all. My apologies if it seemed that way my friend...

Speaking to the DCs that get sold off for pennies aft... Nevermind.
"There is no E"...

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CascadeChris
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:39 am

weth wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:18 am
It amazes me that he still has the patience and perseverance to examine and catalog every darn coin he receives.
Well, it is quite literally his lifes work... Just a guess, and I'm sure JR, JB or others who know him could answer this but I'm guessing he probably has plans to hopefully die at his desk scope in hand examining a silver dollar sometime in the 22nd century.
Alonzi VW 2.0!

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:19 am

So, if I get the responses correctly, we need expansion of the VAM listings before we get contraction? By the way, I have subscribed to this idea in the past, because of the way the hobby is run. But it doesn't need to be this way.

weth
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by weth » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:30 pm

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:19 am
So, if I get the responses correctly, we need expansion of the VAM listings before we get contraction? By the way, I have subscribed to this idea in the past, because of the way the hobby is run. But it doesn't need to be this way.
I think it will be difficult to quell the "thrill of discovery" that compels folks to send coins they don't recognize to LVA, a trait especially strong in those new to the hobby. Again, if LVA wanted to set different rules for how coins are vetted, he could do so. Sure, more die studies would be helpful, but they're difficult to undertake properly.
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:56 am
I've felt seriously bad for the 2 I've pointed to kill...

...nothing nice about killing an active member's listing :(
I don't ever feel at all bad when I assist in clarifying the listings. It's never personal. Sure, I can see that someone might be disappointed when one of their "discoveries" (I don't really care for that term) is found to be a duplicate of a previous listing. But maybe they should have done a little bit more examination and research prior to their submission. I see no glory in getting a new listing when it is ultimately shown to be spurious. I'm much prouder of a kill than of a discovery; to get a new listing simply takes persistence ("Is this a new VAM? How about this one? Or this one?") whereas a kill usually requires real detective work.

blh74
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Re: 1921P VAM 6/91 & VAM 1i/1AE

Post by blh74 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:14 pm

Weth, thank you for teaching me a new word. Concatenated. First time I ever seen it.

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