Back from NGC

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
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TheYokel
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by TheYokel » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:51 pm

RogerRock wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:13 am
You gotta love the the NGC Mint State 62 grade on the second 1878 CC with the GSA plastic chip that states
circulated 90% Silver !! "BUY the COIN NOT the HOLDER" ;) 8-) Vam 7a
As far as I'm aware, all soft packs say "Circulated" on the poker chip.

Even MS64 graded and higher ones. The chip (as far as I've ever seen) was a generic insert they used regardless of the coin. It wasn't meant as a consideration to the quality of the coin it contained...
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CascadeChris
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by CascadeChris » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:00 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:51 pm
RogerRock wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:13 am
You gotta love the the NGC Mint State 62 grade on the second 1878 CC with the GSA plastic chip that states
circulated 90% Silver !! "BUY the COIN NOT the HOLDER" ;) 8-) Vam 7a
As far as I'm aware, all soft packs say "Circulated" on the poker chip.

Even MS64 graded and higher ones. The chip (as far as I've ever seen) was a generic insert they used regardless of the coin. It wasn't meant as a consideration to the quality of the coin it contained...
He knows that. He was being a bit of a jokester pointing out the funny dichotomy.

The grading standards were very different back in the day and anything that didn't look PQ fornthe time were put into soft packs. That includes many toners as color was considered damage. Which has always perplexed me as there are some wild toners in hard packs.
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vampicker
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by vampicker » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:25 pm

If you look at the toned examples in hard packs, they virtually are all in the Carson City Silver Dollar holder without the word Uncirculated. The soft packs were only used in the 2nd sale. No 78-CC got that style of hard pack
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CascadeChris
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by CascadeChris » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:26 pm

vampicker wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:25 pm
If you look at the toned examples in hard packs, they virtually are all in the Carson City Silver Dollar holder without the word Uncirculated. The soft packs were only used in the 2nd sale
Ah, that makes sense. Guess I haven't looked that hard, it was more of a casual observation.
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by vampicker » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:30 pm

In the case of my VAM 7A, it may have been bounced into the Mixed Circulated category because of the clash.
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by TheYokel » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:36 pm

CascadeChris wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:00 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:51 pm
RogerRock wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:13 am
You gotta love the the NGC Mint State 62 grade on the second 1878 CC with the GSA plastic chip that states
circulated 90% Silver !! "BUY the COIN NOT the HOLDER" ;) 8-) Vam 7a
As far as I'm aware, all soft packs say "Circulated" on the poker chip.

Even MS64 graded and higher ones. The chip (as far as I've ever seen) was a generic insert they used regardless of the coin. It wasn't meant as a consideration to the quality of the coin it contained...
He knows that. He was being a bit of a jokester pointing out the funny dichotomy.

The grading standards were very different back in the day and anything that didn't look PQ fornthe time were put into soft packs. That includes many toners as color was considered damage. Which has always perplexed me as there are some wild toners in hard packs.
Circulated coins didn't get put into hard cases, (or much of anything that didn't say CC on it for that matter), but soft packs aren't the body bags of the era you're making them out to be.

It's been documented somewhere that after sales started dropping on the hard cases, they were cutting hard cases open to package coins in soft packs to move them out the door. I think the chart topper for a soft pack is either 66+ or 67...
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vampicker
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by vampicker » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:45 pm

Soft packs were used in the 2nd sale only. No circs in the 1st sale, Just unc 82, 83 and 84-CCs. All the mixed circ pieces and all the non CC pieces were in the 2nd sale. There's a whole chapter on this in the VAM book. I prefer the work in the 2nd edition as it was a nearly contemporary account
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by CascadeChris » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:55 pm

vampicker wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:45 pm
Soft packs were used in the 2nd sale only. No circs in the 1st sale, Just unc 82, 83 and 84-CCs. All the mixed circ pieces and all the non CC pieces were in the 2nd sale. There's a whole chapter on this in the VAM book. I prefer the work in the 2nd edition as it was a nearly contemporary account
I really do need to sit down and go cover to cover with the Bible again now that I can more strenuously comprehend and digest the information with an advanced knowledge of what I am reading.
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by TheYokel » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:09 pm

vampicker wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:45 pm
Soft packs were used in the 2nd sale only. No circs in the 1st sale, Just unc 82, 83 and 84-CCs. All the mixed circ pieces and all the non CC pieces were in the 2nd sale. There's a whole chapter on this in the VAM book. I prefer the work in the 2nd edition as it was a nearly contemporary account
The "second sale" was actually a third attempt. They held a second sale "extension" in April of 73.

Between both "first" sales, they only sold about 750k of the 1.7mil they had for sale.

The $3 Morgans during the "second" were dubbed "PotLuck" dollars and were popular, but less than around 200k softpacks between the 100k Circulated CC's and the 85k random mints were available. That's when they started repackaging to meet demand.

All according to prior research... I'm super curious to read this now...
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by vampicker » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:21 pm

Forgive me for being unwilling to accept anecdotes from 'prior research' - what's the actual source?
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TheYokel
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by TheYokel » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:58 am

vampicker wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:21 pm
Forgive me for being unwilling to accept anecdotes from 'prior research' - what's the actual source?
An old site dedicated to GSA collecting called GSADollars.com had the original articles. I'll have to find the original sources.

It was the 1878-CC's that I believe got repurposed into the soft packs, and the 1878's were coincidentally being sold along-side the soft packs in the second "Jesse James" phase of GSA sales. 1878-CC are the only year to appear disproportionately in soft packs compared to hard packs.

The sales numbers and the dates are well-published. We know how many they sorted and graded and what the results were. GSA published all that info at the time.

We know GSA published they started with just under 3mil coins... And we know what the resulting grading was.

· Just over 2mil Uncirculated CC...
· "Mixed CC"s" accounted for 690,000 coins...
· Circulated CC's equalled just under 100k...
· Non-CC Circulated was 85-90,000
· ~300 rejects : These weren't sold and went to a SF museum.

27,980 non-CC got the slab treatment, and 84,165 went into soft packs. (Need cite for this...)

We also know the actual sales numbers for the hard cases: 2,825,200 in total across all years.

That leaves 170,000 coins left for soft pack sales (including the 30,000 other silver dollars ie peace etc that got mixed in...)

Only 61,000 1878-CC were sold in hard cases.

It's known only the 79, 89, and 90's sold out (and the one-offs).

Originally all circulated CC's were meant to be packaged in hard shells. They used cases that said "Uncirculated" and cases that just said "Silver Dollar" for the circulated coins. I believe the 1893-CC was found in a "Circulated" hard case and graded XF-40.

The circulated 1878 hard cases are what is believed to have been cracked for soft packs.

It's all anecdotal from extrapolated data until i can find the original article as gsadollars isn't functioning anymore, but all the numbers above we know from GSA.

Couple of my unicorns are the 1889/92/93-CC GSA. Only one of each, and the 89-CC was sub'd to NGC and came back 62PL. Thankfully still in the original holder.

Love me some GSA...
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blh74
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by blh74 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:05 am

Can we see a pic of the 89CC please?

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Re: Back from NGC

Post by TheYokel » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:08 am

blh74 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:05 am
Can we see a pic of the 89CC please?
No known pictures that I'm aware of but it's listed in NGC's registry...

Pretty sure Just Having Fun may have owned it at one point...?
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CascadeChris
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by CascadeChris » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:36 am

TheYokel wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:08 am
blh74 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:05 am
Can we see a pic of the 89CC please?
No known pictures that I'm aware of but it's listed in NGC's registry...

Pretty sure Just Having Fun may have owned it at one point...?
@blu62vette may have a pic of it but he rarely checks in here. And even if he did have a pic it may not be for public consumption.
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by vampicker » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:28 am

Detailed information is presented in the VAM book and is sourced back to the GSA itself. The 2nd edition of VAM is contemporary with the sales and a partially first hand account. The authors personally examined a sampling of the dollars for varieties at West Point prior to their packaging.
There's also a current work 'Carson City Morgan Dollars featuring the Coins of the GSA Hoard' by Adam Crum, Selby Ungar and Jeff Oxman. The later editions have a picture of the 1889-CC in the hard case 'Silver Dollar' holder. Their work focuses on the CC hard packs and doesn't delve into the soft packs or the Non CC hard packs.
There's also an excellent article from 'Top 100 Insights' from Fall 2005 by Lewis Rosenbaum (lewisr2 on this site) that can be found in 'A Decade of Top 100 Insights'. It contains some great information on the soft packs - which had no published census of dates published beyond the 78-CC. He also reviews all of the known Top 100 varieties(as of 2005) and examines the relative rarity of the 28 dates verified in the Non CC hard packs.
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by vampicker » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:45 am

Soft pack 93-CC's are known, here's a past sale

https://coins.ha.com/itm/gsa-dollars/si ... ail-071515
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by TheYokel » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:51 am

vampicker wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:45 am
Soft pack 93-CC's are known, here's a past sale

https://coins.ha.com/itm/gsa-dollars/si ... ail-071515
I should have clarified... Only one known hard case is known. Wasn't even discovered until less than 18 months ago.

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/63 ... hard-pack/

Two soft packs are known. Since sales numbers for soft packs weren't published we have no idea how many were inserted or cut out.

Hard pack sales are known.

vampicker wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:28 am
Detailed information is presented in the VAM book and is sourced back to the GSA itself. The 2nd edition of VAM is contemporary with the sales and a partially first hand account. The authors personally examined a sampling of the dollars for varieties at West Point prior to their packaging.
There's also a current work 'Carson City Morgan Dollars featuring the Coins of the GSA Hoard' by Adam Crum, Selby Ungar and Jeff Oxman. The later editions have a picture of the 1889-CC in the hard case 'Silver Dollar' holder. Their work focuses on the CC hard packs and doesn't delve into the soft packs or the Non CC hard packs.
There's also an excellent article from 'Top 100 Insights' from Fall 2005 by Lewis Rosenbaum (lewisr2 on this site) that can be found in 'A Decade of Top 100 Insights'. It contains some great information on the soft packs - which had no published census of dates published beyond the 78-CC. He also reviews all of the known Top 100 varieties(as of 2005) and examines the relative rarity of the 28 dates verified in the Non CC hard packs.
I'd bet a silver dollar all my numbers check out to all these accounts, as they are derived directly from GSA.
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by vampicker » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:58 am

Here's NGC's article on the 93-CC hard pack. Wild and weird find!

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/63 ... hard-pack/

funny we were typing at the same time!
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by TheYokel » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:59 am

vampicker wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:58 am
Here's NGC's article on the 93-CC hard pack. Wild and weird find!

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/63 ... hard-pack/

funny we were typing at the same time!
Jinx :P
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Re: Back from NGC

Post by vampicker » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:39 am

I'm not questioning numbers, they are well known for the CC's. it's the anecdotes about repackaging that has given me pause. The soft packs sold out in the only sale they were offered, the 2nd. . All the 78-CC's, both hard and soft, all the circs(by their definition) and all the Non CC pieces sold out in this sale June-July 73.
If they were going to repackage anything, why use the Nixon boxes in the 6th and 7th sales?
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