delete please

General discussion board about VAMs, but no buy/sell offers
Mhomei
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delete please

Post by Mhomei » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:49 pm

stop breaking my comps up and placing on the pagesyou do not have my permission for anything
other than restore originals or delete the originals.

below is the partial list of pages that have my "comps" files that need to be deleted from VW2.
each one contains 3-6 photos and all the clashed varieties have an additional 8 photos
showing the specific clash location.

these and all the others not yet listed here will not be avaible for viewing in there original form until VW2
DELETES them from this site. they will be made available publicly without size restictions.

1878 S
V14
V19A
V20
V23
V36
V37
V40
V53
V63

1879 P
V75 DC
V76 DC

1879 O
V47

1880 P
V5
V5A
V18A
V28
V28A
V31
V35A
V50
V54
V79
V80

1880 S
V14

1880 O
V2 HILL DIE2
V2B1
V2B2
V3
V11
V12A
V15
V17
V23
V29
V42A
V45A
V48
V51
V53B
V57
V63
V68
V74
V76
V77 DC
V78

1881 O
V1J DC
V2B
V13
V18
V24 D1
V26
V26A
V33 REVISION COIN
V34A
V35
V36
V38
V44 DC
V49
V55A/V4A

1884 O
V19B DC
V27
V29A
V29B
V37A2

1885 P
V1A
V1B
V1C
V1D
V1E
V1G
V1i DC
V1J
V1L DC
V1o DC
V1P DC
V2
V3
V4
V4A
V4B
V5
V6
V7
V8
V9
V9A
V9B
V9C
V9D DC
V9E
V9G
V10
V11
V12
V13
V14
V14A DC
V15
V16 ALL 3 DIES
V17
V18
V19
V20
V21
V22
V23
V23A
V23B
V24
V24A
V25A
V25B
V26 ALL
V27
V28
V29 DC
V30
V31
V32
V33
V33A DC
V34
V35 DC
V36 DC
V37 DC
V38 DC

1888 P
V7D

1888 S
V3A1
V3B

1889 P
V5D
V6

1889 O
V13C
V21A

1891 O
V17
V17A

1901 O
V6

1921 P list is coming soon

1921 S
V1N1
V1AN
V1AS
V1BJ2
V1CB
V1CE
V1CR
V1CU
V1CV
V4
V11A
V15E PP
V22B
V29

tbconcrete
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Re: delete please

Post by tbconcrete » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:14 am

Mitch, Why dont you just delete them yourself. Doesn't seem like much work to go through and delete.

Tiny

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: delete please

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:29 am

Tim, someone will correct me if I am wrong. I think it is because the origin (author) of the files was lost in the translation from VW1 to VW2. Thus nobody can delete anything on VW2 if they are not the recognized origination of the uploaded files or Site Administrator. Someone, correct me if I am wrong. For example, I signed into the VW2 Wiki Home and tried to delete the files myself to try and save us all from this manhood display. Couldn't do it.

But I did upload a file on VW2 and then linked it to a page here, and then proceeded to delete it from the page since apparently I was the recognized originator. But I think the file still resides on the site, just not posted on the page I linked it to. I could not find a way to delete the file from the actual Wiki site.

It will take a while to figure out the nuances on the new VW2.

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andywoj00
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Re: delete please

Post by andywoj00 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:56 am

Here's some info from the Help pages regarding image deletion et al:

https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Ima ... _of_images

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CascadeChris
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Re: delete please

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:15 am

How about this, we keep the pics up because they are perfectly fine for the needs of helping to attribute coins. Problem solved. Pretty selfish to want to remove so many perfectly good pics and force people to go to another site to have to use them. That has zero chance of working out well. Do you really think casual users and newbies will have any idea or desire to do that? If you want to do have high res available to the acedimics off-site cool but this will hurt our hobby immensely and will hinder growth significanly all because pics aren't super high res but they are darn good enough for the needs of VW. Do you not see that? Do.you not care? Come on man. Love ya bro but please drop this. Those pics and comps are fine.
Alonzi VW 2.0!

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: delete please

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:27 am

IMHO, There is a much deeper rooted issue with Mitch than simply "restore or delete". He has put the gauntlet down, and it is either "restore or delete". He will not take any negotiated settlement. Try as you might, this will not be a go-away issue with Mitch. No reasoning will work, again, IMHO.

I say delete and the site will move on. Someone, or somebodies, will fill the void over time. Besides, I have no vested interest in this issue other than it "is". I do not use this site for my work, but that is a subject for another day/time.

Mitch has made it clear, he wants to take his ball and go home. I see no other way to view this. Let he and his ball go home.

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PacificWR
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Re: delete please

Post by PacificWR » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:06 am

Thank you Andy for the definition of “Delete”. That is what 99.9 percent of the folks do not understand in this post. Only the Admin can delete a photo (or assign the permission). Sure, you can remove a photo from a page but, that is so easily undone and it does not remove the photo from the server. Mitch would have to rename each and every file (if he tried to uploaded the photos) or he will receive a message "Duplicate file name". Only a delete will remove the photo from the server and even that can be restored.
Last edited by PacificWR on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mhomei
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Location: New Jersey

Re: delete please

Post by Mhomei » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:40 am

Tim
I would but I am not a member of VW2
Read the new main page. They are essentially
Saying they can do what ever they want to any photos uploaded to the site. So I wont join

Chris
My comps were smashed down to a 400 width. Exactly what John said would happen
For the migration. I told him not to migrate
Mine before the migration. He migrated them anyway.
Then people were going into the pages and blowing the pictures up and making them so blurry and not useful. Now people are chopping my comps into individual pictures.

Alan
Your off base with the statement
You took your balls and placed them in a book
And not on the site.

The only difference here is my balls/info will be available free of charge.
and of superior quality.

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CascadeChris
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Re: delete please

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:35 am

Mitch. Thats a crap ton of pics bro. They work fine, at least for now. Removing all of that content will neuter VAM World and make it next to, or fully impossible for newbies, casual users, almost anyone, everyone to effectively attribute many VAMs. Dude. Seriously?
Alonzi VW 2.0!

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LorenAlbert
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Re: delete please

Post by LorenAlbert » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:49 am

As I recall, the main reason for decreasing the file/image size was to support cell phones. And to assure performance on the bourse. In addition to Mitch's photographs being degraded, the Heritage Auction photographs are not as helpful as they once were. Perhaps the checksums changed.
5G is around the corner. Maybe the VW20 size restrictions could be revisited by the SSDC.

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CascadeChris
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Re: delete please

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:00 pm

LorenAlbert wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:49 am
As I recall, the main reason for decreasing the file/image size was to support cell phones. And to assure performance on the bourse. In addition to Mitch's photographs being degraded, the Heritage Auction photographs are not as helpful as they once were. Perhaps the checksums changed.
5G is around the corner. Maybe the VW20 size restrictions could be revisited by the SSDC.
Hmm. I think you're on to something Loren. Perhaps we can agree to a detente compromise..

You're right about the 5G. When that goes up massive amounts of data can be downloaded in micro-seconds.. How about we keep everything as-is for now BUT we add links to the high-res images to all the pages Mitch listed for those that want/need to have that level of resolution while not on mobile and when the 5G infrastructure is in general use we can remove the links and replace the adjusted pics with the high-res pics on the pages.
Alonzi VW 2.0!

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messydesk
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Re: delete please

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:23 pm

Several points I'm going to address here.

Two reasons for downscaling images were space and performance. We were way over the limit on VW 1.0, and we are charged for space used (among other variables) on VW 2.0. At the time VW 2.0 was created, it wasn't clear what the storage costs would add up to. This isn't as big of a consideration as anticipated, but there is an interesting twist. For large images, the MediaWiki platform automatically creates and saves several downscaled copies of the original image in a cache. In doing this, the server sends the minimum size necessary to the client to render the image appropriately in its context. You can see this when resizing your browser window on pages and suddenly the image changes size. If you click on an image larger than 600x600, you'll see a list of available sizes in which an image has been cached, including the original size. This server-side downscaling helps mitigate performance issues one might see in a mobile environment, as was experienced on VW 1.0, and the caching of these downscaled images additionally improves performance within the server, at the expense of storing additional copies of the original image.

The main reasons for breaking up composites and disallowing them, as specified on the VAM page template, are user experience and maintainability. They don't play nice with other photos that have been uploaded. If there is a single image that someone wants to upload that goes well with one of the images in a composite, they can't be arranged to be near each other, advantageously for the user. If someone wants to upgrade an image within a composite, it can't be done without editing the composite. The new framework makes it very easy to set up an image gallery, which takes care of positioning and sizing automatically, and allows us to present a user with a tight, clean page of images that can be visually optimized to guide someone toward key pick-up points to attribution of their coin, while showing there are secondary areas of interest. The syntax is simpler than it was in VW 1.0 and does not require knowledge or encoding of image dimensions or display formatting. Inserting an image is about as trivial of an operation as it can get. Composite images are not compatible with this.

Future expansion and versatility are other reasons for not having composite images. Many dates have pages for sorting by date position, mint mark position, etc. An ideal presentation for a page sorting by date position would be to have a "mug book" of date positions, allowing someone to quickly look at only one feature on their coin and visually match it to candidate VAMs. The images used on such a page could be taken from the VAM pages on which they appear, but not if they are composites.

Regarding the CC license, VW 1.0 was governed by the CC 3.0 SA-BY-NC license, VW 2.0 uses the CC 4.0 SA-BY-NC license, which is considered compatible with the version 3.0 license. A work under a CC license can be republished under a compatible license. These are not ND (no derivative) licenses, so adaptations of material uploaded to VW to new works have never required permission, only attribution. Also, downsampling, reformatting, and printing are technical modifications and are not considered adaptations, whether done by the MediaWiki framework or outside of it. One thing to note, however, is that it is possible for a low resolution image to be licensed, but a higher resolution image not to be, but it is not straightforward to implement this. The higher resolution image has to be considered to be a different work and not simply a technical modification of the low resolution image. Also, if a low resolution image is used as a thumbnail that links to a high resolution image protected by a different license, someone clicking on the thumbnail must realize this, otherwise the high resolution image could be considered to be released under the same license as the thumbnail. Linking just an image won't convey this information, but linking to a web page containing new copyright information, or through a portal making someone accept different license terms, would. Those linking external images to thumbnails posted here or on the wiki need to consider how they want external images used in the future.

In the previous thread about these composites, Mitch was amenable to there being broken up versions of his composites on VW. Guidance for adding images to VAM pages is in the VAM page template and clearly specifies not to use composite images. Reformatting the composite images (a non-expressive technical modification) does not require permission, and is even being given further attribution as a comment for the image on every extracted image loaded.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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LorenAlbert
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Re: delete please

Post by LorenAlbert » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:21 pm

Also, if a low resolution image is used as a thumbnail that links to a high resolution image protected by a different license, someone clicking on the thumbnail must realize this, otherwise the high resolution image could be considered to be released under the same license as the thumbnail. Linking just an image won't convey this information, but linking to a web page containing new copyright information, or through a portal making someone accept different license terms, would. Those linking external images to thumbnails posted here or on the wiki need to consider how they want external images used in the future.
I have read the licensing clauses pertaining to thumbnails and cache, but it was a few years ago. What is quoted above is immensely important to me. I don't recall a discussion of "someone must realize" in regard to a linked thumbnail. Would you please provide a citation/link for the thumbnail, cache, original work clauses?

Are you suggesting that externally linked photographs, if linked from a thumbnail on the VW PHPBB or MediaWiki, become subject to local storage and processing by the SSDC without the need for permission from the content creator? Thank you. Loren

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messydesk
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Re: delete please

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 pm

LorenAlbert wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:21 pm
I have read the licensing clauses pertaining to thumbnails and cache, but it was a few years ago. What is quoted above is immensely important to me. I don't recall a discussion of "someone must realize" in regard to a linked thumbnail. Would you please provide a citation/link for the thumbnail, cache, original work clauses?

Are you suggesting that externally linked photographs, if linked from a thumbnail on the VW PHPBB or MediaWiki, become subject to local storage and processing by the SSDC without the need for permission from the content creator? Thank you. Loren
Discussion of having different licensing for a high and low resolution images is here. The issue is twofold. First, you need to assert the different copyright protection of the high resolution image, and second, it needs to be a different work, and a purely technical modification like being a different size doesn't make it a different work. Intuitively, where something is hosted within a jurisdiction shouldn't matter. A front end showing thumbnail images can easily be on a different server from a database of full-resolution images.

The current terms of use of the forum are silent as far as the licensing of the content, so images posted here shouldn't be reposted to the wiki without the forum poster requesting that it be done. I will look into how other forums handle this and propose a change the terms of use accordingly, but not retroactive to content already posted. Common sense and ease-of-use are going to prevail here.

The SSDC is not interested in harvesting externally linked material for the wiki, but the nature of the wiki is such that anyone can contribute material. If you have copyrighted material that is not under a CC SA-BY-NC or less-restrictive license that has been published on the wiki, you may remove it or bring it to my attention.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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LorenAlbert
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Re: delete please

Post by LorenAlbert » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:50 pm

The SSDC is not interested in harvesting externally linked material for the wiki, but the nature of the wiki is such that anyone can contribute material. If you have copyrighted material that is not under a CC SA-BY-NC or less-restrictive license that has been published on the wiki, you may remove it or bring it to my attention.
Thank you. By "remove", I can edit the topic script, but as a non-administrator, I can not remove from versioning or storage?

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messydesk
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Re: delete please

Post by messydesk » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:57 pm

LorenAlbert wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:50 pm
Thank you. By "remove", I can edit the topic script, but as a non-administrator, I can not remove from versioning or storage?
Correct.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

DHalladay
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Re: delete please

Post by DHalladay » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:58 pm

VAMworld is welcome to have, for eternity, any and all coin photos I post. And if more photos are wanted I will take them. Unfortunately, I don't own a single 1885-P Morgan.
When in doubt... don't.

blh74
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Re: delete please

Post by blh74 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:32 am

This is getting way the F over my head

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LorenAlbert
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Re: delete please

Post by LorenAlbert » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:36 am

The LVA plate photographs and the Heritage Auction photographs, by virtue of being on VW20 take on the CC license provisions? Original HA photographs could be displayed on another site on the heels of matching "thumbnails" on VW20? Are LVA and HA aware of usage provisions provided by the Creative Commons license?

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messydesk
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Re: delete please

Post by messydesk » Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:08 am

LorenAlbert wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:36 am
The LVA plate photographs and the Heritage Auction photographs, by virtue of being on VW20 take on the CC license provisions? Original HA photographs could be displayed on another site on the heels of matching "thumbnails" on VW20? Are LVA and HA aware of usage provisions provided by the Creative Commons license?
Both gave permission to upload their work quite some time ago for VW 1.0. Heritage (and others) simply wanted the photos attributed to them. The "BY" part in the CC license means that the attribution of the photo to Heritage needs to be preserved. Had there been a problem with high-resolution photos of Heritage being used in a CC environment and traced back to the images on VAMWorld, most of which aren't linked to specific auctions, we'd have heard about it. With thousands of coins going through auctions each week, I don't think this is a concern that's on their radar.

The only photos of Leroy's that are off limits are photos as they appear in the VAM book. He's given his blessing to use stuff sent out in letters to collectors. I had an e-mail exchange with him in September 2015 about this, and while he wasn't sure how to handle it, his bottom line was, "[I] don't want to stifle collectors efforts & render VAMWorld less useful." Read that direct quote again, and then buy the supplements from him if you haven't.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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