87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

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CascadeChris
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by CascadeChris » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:55 pm

That's a beaut Andy, mush less scuffing in that area than my 13A!
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vampicker
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by vampicker » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:05 pm

Similar marks are found on the 88-O Scarface progression. Part of the curve of the eagle's neck can be seen in the D gap in the hair. A section of the wing edge cuts across the back of the jaw.
This hard clash almost certainly lead to the break in all its glory
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TheYokel
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by TheYokel » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:08 pm

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:33 am
The VAM-13 was studied 10 years ago. I did an article about the die progression of the VAM-13 and it is repeated in a VAMView back when. It includes the eagle beak transfer.

Here is a link to the VAM-13 page if anyone is interested. Look at Comment 2.

http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 7-P_VAM-13
Awesome write up. Now I know mine is either a 4 or 5 :)...

...but now I also know that un uncracked VAM13 would be a one-of-a-kind coin... *gets Ant-sy*...
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UncleGildy
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by UncleGildy » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:51 pm

TheYokel wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:08 pm
Awesome write up...
I'll second Mr. Ant. That write-up is great. The last few images finally revealed to me how not all of the beak outline can be expected to show up. After seeing that, visualization of the clash became clear.

I have two VAMs with bearded eagle - can't wait to check for the beak.

[edit] And for those wondering which VAMs have bearded eagles, here's another great VAMWorld page: http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... agle_Clash (first hit in a VW search of "bearded eagle")

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TheYokel
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by TheYokel » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:04 pm

UncleGildy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:51 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:08 pm
Awesome write up...
I'll second Mr. Ant. That write-up is great. The last few images finally revealed to me how not all of the beak outline can be expected to show up. After seeing that, visualization of the clash became clear.

I have two VAMs with bearded eagle - can't wait to check for the beak.

[edit] And for those wondering which VAMs have bearded eagles, here's another great VAMWorld page: http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... agle_Clash (first hit in a VW search of "bearded eagle")
Looking at the list, i think the 13A is missing from the "Antler" list? Or do they need to be a certain size to qualify?
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CascadeChris
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by CascadeChris » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:12 pm

That list, similar to the 21 "feeder fingers" list is woefully wanting. Although the FF list does seem to be more effective. Many times I've come across a bearded eagle, went there to check first for an easy attribution only for it not to be on the list..
Last edited by CascadeChris on Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:36 pm

Just a comment from an old school guy. Some will take this the wrong way, some won't. It is not intended to offend anyone but is just MHO.

This type of thing is not listed by Leroy. Thus this type of "list" with this type of feature does not help new VAMmers in education. It may help for a quicker attribution, but the base VAM and what it is listed for is passed by. Thus the fundamentals of VAMming are not learned in this process. Also, if we list everything little thing like this, there will be info overload and lists such that things will get cluttered and bog down attribution.

I saw some mention of newbies not knowing what a rotated die is unless it is floated to the top of the page listings. Same thing with a bearded eagle. If all of this is floated to the top of the VAM pages, imagine what they would look like.

Lost in all of this would be understanding fundamentals such as date placement, doubled dates, mint mark placement, doubled ears, etc.

Just something to think about.

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UncleGildy
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by UncleGildy » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:39 pm

I love VAMWorld as a resource, and even with occasional dated pages here and there, it's hands down the best, comprehensive VAM resource anywhere on the Internet (well, seems like it to me, but I'm biased and inexperienced). I occasionally see other pages that could be updated or links that could be restored (if possible).

:idea: Makes me wonder if it would be possible to establish TODO list somewhere, that people could add observations to when they encounter a missing or out of dated page. This Bearded Eagle list is still valuable as is, but if people were able to just add a known VAM to that TODO on the discussion board, then maybe a VAMWorld wiki admin could update the page, or try to uncover the missing PDF as time allowed.

Don't want to hijack the topic - please (re)move this out if appropriate.

But wait! There is a Test Feedback discussion board already here isn't there?
Consider this a advertisement for it (now I'll shut up and go add a TODO suggestion post to it for the Bearded Eagle list updates :oops:).

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UncleGildy
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by UncleGildy » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:51 pm

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:36 pm
...
Just something to think about.
Now I regret my post a bit :). I see you're point and it's absolutely correct!

But there is a little fun and wonder to these curious die markers at the same time.

I wholeheartedly agree these things are secondary and should not clutter or interfere with the fundamental purpose. Focus on listable attributes and the process of analyzing the coin with a focus on the more fundamental elements is more important. Attribution 101 and Leroy's attribution guidelines are more important to grasp first.

Although they may not be featured as prominently on VAMWorld or the main pages? In the past I found myself searching for that page, but maybe that's changed. Leroy's listable features guide is really important, but looks very dated. Spiffing that up might be of value.

Now as for the fun secondary attributes like bearded eagles, etc.: a simple search of VAMWorld will bring them up. And I have a hunch from the interest here, that there it's still some value in updating them. I'll add that TODO request, but with less priority now :)

Thanks for pointing this out and helping keep things in perspective.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:25 pm

I use things like crack finders, clash finders, etc and I create them for the die studies I do. They do help for a quick attribution when they are present and they have a purpose.

But the conundrum occurs when a otherwise plain-jane die pair with no cracks, clashes, etc. gets into a newbies hands, and they are clueless on how to attribute it because they don't understand the fundamentals.

Examples of this abound on this site. That is why I support a One & Done approach, where die markers that show up on all die stages/states are shown. If this info is presented, then attribution can be made regardless of the die stage/state. But this opens up the "but my coin has...", or "this is not listed but is on my coin....". Coversely, if we show every little thing on the pages that can occur regardless of die stage/state, it leads to the same questions. Such as, "My coin doesn't have this feature, but it is shown on the pages here".

This is a never ending point of discussion. But I maintain understanding the basics is of utmost importance if you want truly get into VAMming. If folks are in this for a quick attribution and flip, then it means nothing to those folks.

Pile on as usual.

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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by UncleGildy » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:50 pm

I know of what you speak! I've been there several times over the past 9 months, and I've revealed it in some of my posts. I think I've finally started to getting it on my own, and make far fewer mistakes. Though I do confess to enjoying the curiosities that make some non-listable die markers so interesting, and really get a kick out of the story behind how the mint, their processes and the lineage of a die - how it came to be a specific VAM and particular die state.

When I started off, I would often leverage the crack guides to help find something on eBay (that and date & m/m placement). One issue still leading to leverage of these guides is that many of the listable features don't show up in ebay photos, while the cracks and others do. As you say, the cracks aren't always there on a VAM, so you'll be focusing on only one die state if you rely on it.

I value the one (or two) and done concept, but still love the additional photos. I just need to remind myself they're only that - additional photos of one coin. They still prove helpful and very enjoyable to browse - sort of eye candy for some of us.

That's just one opinion from an inexperienced but learning newbie though.

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CascadeChris
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by CascadeChris » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:34 pm

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:36 pm
Just a comment from an old school guy. Some will take this the wrong way, some won't. It is not intended to offend anyone but is just MHO.

This type of thing is not listed by Leroy. Thus this type of "list" with this type of feature does not help new VAMmers in education. It may help for a quicker attribution, but the base VAM and what it is listed for is passed by. Thus the fundamentals of VAMming are not learned in this process. Also, if we list everything little thing like this, there will be info overload and lists such that things will get cluttered and bog down attribution.

I saw some mention of newbies not knowing what a rotated die is unless it is floated to the top of the page listings. Same thing with a bearded eagle. If all of this is floated to the top of the VAM pages, imagine what they would look like.

Lost in all of this would be understanding fundamentals such as date placement, doubled dates, mint mark placement, doubled ears, etc.

Just something to think about.
Don't take this the wrong way Scott, but I'm surprised this line of thinking is coming from one of, if not the main, proponent of "one and done" attributions.

I'm all for making attributing easier. For both newbies and veterans. If VAMming is too hard in the beginning many give up. We all know it is addictive so making it easier for newbies to correctly identify a pairing can only help. While veterans would like an easy source of confirmation or exclusion. Lists like a bearded eagle, feeder finger, pitted dies and the like, if comprehensive and complete with all known said features and with all new listing with said features being added as they are listed would help this hobbies growth tremendously
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:25 am

LateDateMorganGuy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:36 pm
Just a comment from an old school guy. Some will take this the wrong way, some won't. It is not intended to offend anyone but is just MHO.
CascadeChris wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:34 pm
Don't take this the wrong way Scott, but I'm surprised this line of thinking is coming from one of, if not the main, proponent of "one and done" attributions.
And hence why this is a constant drum beat on this site. Not everyone thinks alike and/or agrees. A quick attribution by a crack finder or other list does not promote fundamentals IMHO.

Everyone, including veterans need to resort to fundamentals when the "quick attribution" markers are not there.

And besides, from a guy who does die studies, One & Done markers identify shared dies in a die study. This is much more difficult when the ONE & Dones are not shown.

But Chris, I am not trying to get into a feud. I am just presenting a different way to look at things based on over 17 years doing this which has served me well over that time.

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Re: 87p v13A... Eagles beak transfer to obverse?

Post by blh74 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:17 am

I taught myself by reading the Encyclopedia. Before I ever heard of Vamworld. Just the basic fundamentals of the dies. I think it works just fine.

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