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Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:01 am
by messydesk
PacificWR wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:36 am
Esoteric for a new collector to be seeing at the top of a page. that's funny. Enhancing a new user's experience was talked about extensively is my post dated 12/19/18 and was a direct request from several new user's that I talked to offline. Why the big problem now? This site is supposed to be all about sharing information. On the 1889-O VAM page a floating table was used. A floating table does not require any additional page space. That is part of the reason I used it. The other part is from the request from new user's.
The simple answer is that it distracts from the task of interpreting the VAM catalog and attributing a coin, which is what we want to help the new user be able to do quickly and with confidence. Yes, share the information, but where appropriate.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:05 am
by TheYokel
messydesk wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:01 am
PacificWR wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:36 am
Esoteric for a new collector to be seeing at the top of a page. that's funny. Enhancing a new user's experience was talked about extensively is my post dated 12/19/18 and was a direct request from several new user's that I talked to offline. Why the big problem now? This site is supposed to be all about sharing information. On the 1889-O VAM page a floating table was used. A floating table does not require any additional page space. That is part of the reason I used it. The other part is from the request from new user's.
The simple answer is that it distracts from the task of interpreting the VAM catalog and attributing a coin, which is what we want to help the new user be able to do quickly and with confidence. Yes, share the information, but where appropriate.
I see it like the 21 scribbles page. It's a click for people that want to take it. I do just as much reading and learning on here as i do matching pictures. I, for one, appreciate any extra info available. Just keep it as a link above the main list, or have an "Additional Resources" page. Don't do away with extra info though... You never know what might pique someone's interest in a date...

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:47 am
by PacificWR
TheYokel wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:05 am
messydesk wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:01 am
PacificWR wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:36 am
Esoteric for a new collector to be seeing at the top of a page. that's funny. Enhancing a new user's experience was talked about extensively is my post dated 12/19/18 and was a direct request from several new user's that I talked to offline. Why the big problem now? This site is supposed to be all about sharing information. On the 1889-O VAM page a floating table was used. A floating table does not require any additional page space. That is part of the reason I used it. The other part is from the request from new user's.
The simple answer is that it distracts from the task of interpreting the VAM catalog and attributing a coin, which is what we want to help the new user be able to do quickly and with confidence. Yes, share the information, but where appropriate.
I see it like the 21 scribbles page. It's a click for people that want to take it. I do just as much reading and learning on here as i do matching pictures. I, for one, appreciate any extra info available. Just keep it as a link above the main list, or have an "Additional Resources" page. Don't do away with extra info though... You never know what might pique someone's interest in a date...
The simple answer is that it distracts from the task of interpreting the VAM catalog and attributing a coin, which is what we want to help the new user be able to do quickly and with confidence. Yes, share the information, but where appropriate.

JB,

If you truly feel this way then I guess you need to remove the template on the 1878-CC page.

TheYokel,

Here is a direct quote I received from a new user "I like it". They liked the main features upfront and clearly visible. The page layout helped not only to educate them , but it increased their interest level. That is what we want. Another example is the 1888-S VAMs. Click the link then click on item #3 under 1888-S VAM Stats. Once you are on the 1888-S VAM-13 page notice the embedded links for die gouges. Before I made this change this information was in the VAM-13 listing only. Very easily missed by a new user or any user that was not familiar with the VAM. They would have passed right over it unless they just so happened to click on VAM-13. Now it is an educational tool.

Since my question on what has changed since my post on 12/19/18 has not been answered I am going to say it appears to me that certain folks have received blow back. If that is the fact that is ok. One thing is for sure we have two camps here. One camp that does not want to see the educational aspect and would prefer just to scroll to the VAM list or attribution guides in short keep things the way they are. Just update the font and a few other things. . The other camp want's the educational aspect and all the other features. It almost seems like two different platforms. Close but not quite. Well, there is a way to address this thanks to VAMWorld 2.0 and it's updated tool set (code and features).

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:25 pm
by Unc90o
The table shown on the 1889-O VAM page is called a floating table. A floating table does not require any additional space on a page. So it is no big deal when it comes to space. That is part of the reason I used (floating table)it for this page. Why do you want to stuff the learning experience down in the VAM listing which will make it harder for a new user to locate?
While the use of Floating table is pretty cool, I think it somewhat clutter the page. Plus, when someone, oldies or newbies scroll down the list, with an icon or simple wording in parenthesis added right after the official description; will give immediate result without the clutter. I'm in the same boat with you as far as making the page or listing better. Just like the rotated dies for 1889-O. I would like to know that some of them has the rotated feature, but of course it is not listed as such currently because "only some" has this feature. I'm sure your thinking is inline with mine. Some of listed VAM has extra feature that is not necessarily shown on the official listing. Only after you click and open the the page it will tell you the extra feature either on the description or on the comment section below it. Another example, look at 1881-S VAM-43. It only shows being S/S. How many people here know that "only some" has die chips?

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:05 pm
by TheYokel
Unc90o wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:25 pm
The table shown on the 1889-O VAM page is called a floating table. A floating table does not require any additional space on a page. So it is no big deal when it comes to space. That is part of the reason I used (floating table)it for this page. Why do you want to stuff the learning experience down in the VAM listing which will make it harder for a new user to locate?
While the use of Floating table is pretty cool, I think it somewhat clutter the page. Plus, when someone, oldies or newbies scroll down the list, with an icon or simple wording in parenthesis added right after the official description; will give immediate result without the clutter. I'm in the same boat with you as far as making the page or listing better. Just like the rotated dies for 1889-O. I would like to know that some of them has the rotated feature, but of course it is not listed as such currently because "only some" has this feature. I'm sure your thinking is inline with mine. Some of listed VAM has extra feature that is not necessarily shown on the official listing. Only after you click and open the the page it will tell you the extra feature either on the description or on the comment section below it. Another example, look at 1881-S VAM-43. It only shows being S/S. How many people here know that "only some" has die chips?
Agreed in general, but there are times i feel the additional information should be front and center at the beginning of the year/mm listing.

That would be like the 21's wide reeding being hidden in the listings and not up front for people to see. I think the rotated dies falls into this camp. Something that should be upfront for people to see. How many newbies wouldn't even realize the die is rotated at first glance? You've seen my initial posts on clashes... I'd bet not many.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:44 am
by PacificWR
Unc90o wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:25 pm
The table shown on the 1889-O VAM page is called a floating table. A floating table does not require any additional space on a page. So it is no big deal when it comes to space. That is part of the reason I used (floating table)it for this page. Why do you want to stuff the learning experience down in the VAM listing which will make it harder for a new user to locate?
While the use of Floating table is pretty cool, I think it somewhat clutter the page. Plus, when someone, oldies or newbies scroll down the list, with an icon or simple wording in parenthesis added right after the official description; will give immediate result without the clutter. I'm in the same boat with you as far as making the page or listing better. Just like the rotated dies for 1889-O. I would like to know that some of them has the rotated feature, but of course it is not listed as such currently because "only some" has this feature. I'm sure your thinking is inline with mine. Some of listed VAM has extra feature that is not necessarily shown on the official listing. Only after you click and open the the page it will tell you the extra feature either on the description or on the comment section below it. Another example, look at 1881-S VAM-43. It only shows being S/S. How many people here know that "only some" has die chips?
The key word is '''scroll.''' With a floating table no scrolling is involved. The user has the choice to look at the table or not. There is another problem with stuffing a learning experience down in the official description line. For VAM's with long descriptions, plus the TOP-100 verbiage, LFCP icon a spacing problem crops up (to keep all the information from becoming packed on just one line). In short, it will run all the verbiage far out to the right of the page. You can wrap it but, that requires another line of page space. Hence...you just increased the page length (longer page) and to some degree created a degree of confusion. There is no need to do this. We already have this problem to some degree.

He is another example using the 1889-O series. Say a new user or a user that is not familiar the series pulls up the current 1889-O VAM listing page. They will recognize immediately that this series has three rotated dies. The information is right there all in one place. Now if we use your suggestion (without a floating table or anything under VAM Stats) The new user or user not familiar with the series would have to go to each VAM listing to learn this. This makes it harder not easier for a new user or user not familiar with the series.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:15 am
by PacificWR
TheYokel wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:05 pm
Unc90o wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:25 pm
The table shown on the 1889-O VAM page is called a floating table. A floating table does not require any additional space on a page. So it is no big deal when it comes to space. That is part of the reason I used (floating table)it for this page. Why do you want to stuff the learning experience down in the VAM listing which will make it harder for a new user to locate?
While the use of Floating table is pretty cool, I think it somewhat clutter the page. Plus, when someone, oldies or newbies scroll down the list, with an icon or simple wording in parenthesis added right after the official description; will give immediate result without the clutter. I'm in the same boat with you as far as making the page or listing better. Just like the rotated dies for 1889-O. I would like to know that some of them has the rotated feature, but of course it is not listed as such currently because "only some" has this feature. I'm sure your thinking is inline with mine. Some of listed VAM has extra feature that is not necessarily shown on the official listing. Only after you click and open the the page it will tell you the extra feature either on the description or on the comment section below it. Another example, look at 1881-S VAM-43. It only shows being S/S. How many people here know that "only some" has die chips?
Agreed in general, but there are times i feel the additional information should be front and center at the beginning of the year/mm listing.

That would be like the 21's wide reeding being hidden in the listings and not up front for people to see. I think the rotated dies falls into this camp. Something that should be upfront for people to see. How many newbies wouldn't even realize the die is rotated at first glance? You've seen my initial posts on clashes... I'd bet not many.
I did not see your post on clashes.

Bingo on your 21's wide reeding example. It's like going from 1st class seating to cargo hole.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:40 pm
by PacificWR
Ok, think everyone really knows what’s going on here but, putting that a side for a second this post sure brought out the fact that there are two camps out there. One camp either does not want to see any changes (or very little) to take advantage of the new tool sets to improve this site. The other camp would like to see the site updated. Well, as mentioned above there is a way to combine the two. I have created four test models (1879-S, 1884-P, 1884-CC and the 1889-O) that I’ll use as an example. All four test models are a little different but, have what I call a WOW factor. However, each model still uses the same VAM listings, Attributions Guides, etc. The VAM page list, Attribution Guides, etc. are located on the left side of each model. Two of the models (1879-S & 1889-O) have an educational aspect built into them. The 1879-S model will save scrolling time if one wants to view the VAM listing for the slanted arrow varieties (you do not have to scroll past the parallel varieties). Click on the link below to view each model. When viewing the models on your cell make sure you scroll down to bottom of the page first and click on mobile view (located next to the Disclaimers). After you view the test models compare them against what we have now. This new way just blows the old way out of the water.

Link: http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... Ms_by_Date

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:41 am
by blh74
I like it.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:48 am
by ORGirl1!
This is great! I like it! Thank you.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:01 am
by messydesk
PacificWR wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:40 pm
One camp either does not want to see any changes (or very little) to take advantage of the new tool sets to improve this site.
New tool sets will not improve this site. Why don't you understand that? Correct content, and efficiency in accessing it will. I would much rather take advantage of knowledge people have to make the information on VAMWorld accurate and reliable, without that, cosmetic changes are at best MEANINGLESS.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:26 pm
by PacificWR
messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:01 am
PacificWR wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:40 pm
One camp either does not want to see any changes (or very little) to take advantage of the new tool sets to improve this site.
New tool sets will not improve this site. Why don't you understand that? Correct content, and efficiency in accessing it will. I would much rather take advantage of knowledge people have to make the information on VAMWorld accurate and reliable, without that, cosmetic changes are at best MEANINGLESS.
WOW! You have to be kidding? Why do you think Wiki dropped the old platform? Answer: It SURE wasn’t because of the content. It was because the old platform was out of date. This new platform (VAMWorld 2.0) has so much more to offer than cosmetic changes. To ignore technology is like living in the past. Would you really want to light your home at night with oil lamps? Same house same contents. I’ll choose electricity.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:01 pm
by messydesk
PacificWR wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:26 pm
WOW! You have to be kidding? Why do you think Wiki dropped the old platform? Answer: It SURE wasn’t because of the content. It was because the old platform was out of date. This new platform (VAMWorld 2.0) has so much more to offer than cosmetic changes. To ignore technology is like living in the past. Would you really want to light your home at night with oil lamps? Same house same contents. I’ll choose electricity.
I'm not sure what you mean by Wiki dropping the old platform. VAMWorld moved because the old hosting site, Wikispaces, went under. I made the informed decision to build the wiki using Mediawiki and host it on AWS, cutting out the middleman. The Wikispaces framework provided for making all the cosmetic changes you are trying, just like Mediawiki does.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:12 pm
by TheYokel
messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:01 am
PacificWR wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:40 pm
One camp either does not want to see any changes (or very little) to take advantage of the new tool sets to improve this site.
New tool sets will not improve this site. Why don't you understand that? Correct content, and efficiency in accessing it will. I would much rather take advantage of knowledge people have to make the information on VAMWorld accurate and reliable, without that, cosmetic changes are at best MEANINGLESS.
I'm probably going to step on some toes, and for that i apologize up front...

But everything can be improved.

Making the tools you use to research the VAMs easier to use will only help us in finding the incorrect information that exists on here. There are plenty of people constantly searching listings for duplicate or incorrect information. I wouldn't have found the duplicate cap crack if that weren't the case. People ARE researching the pages. We just need to make the research easier to do in some cases.

Want to know what i want more than anything to be added to the site (aside from a new E listing I find)? A web-based clash overlay tool with rotatable dies. Hunting for transfer? Rotate the tool to line up the neck/wing line and the neck clash. You'd then know where every single transfer on the coin should be and where to look for. I already have a set of transparencies i made in Adobe to use myself after my last E hunt... But how seriously useful would that be to have on the site?

There are lots and lots of tools we could implement to making research easier and more effective.

If you really want to start with the content, we need to start with the one-photo or word-only phantom listings. Ghost listings are one of the most complained about aspects of content I've seen brought up since I've joined. Cataloguing should be one of the most important projects to tackle imo...

I've said I fear we are going to lose VAMs to phantom listings one day. God forbid i bring this up, but we aren't always going to have the people we rely on for answers to tell us what a word problem means.

And I'm all-in for sortable feature links. I believe every mint/year should have things like transfer and die break links you can click on to filter out the rest of the listings. You have to remember that there is a population of us that actively use this site while out picking. I shouldn't have to scroll through 135 listings, loading each listing separately, while cherry picking on some $#!%%¥ mobile network. I should be able to click "Listed Die Breaks" and have a page filtered specifically to die breaks.

If the 89-P page had that feature, the 1D1 and 1G break duplicates wouldn't have sat on the site for a year while being 4 listings apart from each other. It would have been found *a lot* sooner, I'm guessing.

Short version: research is importance #1... But tools help the research. We need both to work in unison...

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:56 pm
by messydesk
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:12 pm
...
Want to know what i want more than anything to be added to the site (aside from a new E listing I find)? A web-based clash overlay tool with rotatable dies. Hunting for transfer? Rotate the tool to line up the neck/wing line and the neck clash. You'd then know where every single transfer on the coin should be and where to look for. I already have a set of transparencies i made in Adobe to use myself after my last E hunt... But how seriously useful would that be to have on the site?
In this case, you're probably describing something that is beyond what the Mediawiki platform is meant to provide, but this is left as an exercise to any web developer who wants to re-create Terry Forfa's clash rotation guide online.
If you really want to start with the content, we need to start with the one-photo or word-only phantom listings. Ghost listings are one of the most complained about aspects of content I've seen brought up since I've joined. Cataloguing should be one of the most important projects to tackle imo...

I've said I fear we are going to lose VAMs to phantom listings one day. God forbid i bring this up, but we aren't always going to have the people we rely on for answers to tell us what a word problem means.
And this is exactly why I called for participants in a team to address content accuracy. I did get some responses, and the first date that will be addressed, at the request of one of the members, is 79-S. Everything from text to pictures to links will be looked at for correctness, and then additional opportunities for pages to speed attribution will be addressed.
And I'm all-in for sortable feature links. I believe every mint/year should have things like transfer and die break links you can click on to filter out the rest of the listings. You have to remember that there is a population of us that actively use this site while out picking. I shouldn't have to scroll through 135 listings, loading each listing separately, while cherry picking on some $#!%%¥ mobile network. I should be able to click "Listed Die Breaks" and have a page filtered specifically to die breaks.
This was addressed for 1921-P, and works fairly well, not that it doesn't have room for improvement, and I know of someone working on a tool for this. For other dates with notable die breaks, but fewer than 1921, there are other ways this could be handled.
If the 89-P page had that feature, the 1D1 and 1G break duplicates wouldn't have sat on the site for a year while being 4 listings apart from each other. It would have been found *a lot* sooner, I'm guessing.
If people spent time proofreading content, it would have been found, too. There have been many new listings over the years shot down as duplicates within days of people post their new listing letter from Leroy.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:10 pm
by TheYokel
messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:56 pm
If people spent time proofreading content, it would have been found, too. There have been many new listings over the years shot down as duplicates within days of people post their new listing letter from Leroy.
Yes for new listings... But there are also undoubtedly countless duplicate listings from the last few decades waiting to be noticed. The VAM Listings Task Force you are assembling should surely help with that.

I'm not sure why you are so against sortable lists though. That makes no sense to me... Anything that makes the end-user experience better or faster should be a good thing, in my eyes... :?:

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:17 pm
by messydesk
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:10 pm
I'm not sure why you are so against sortable lists though. That makes no sense to me... Anything that makes the end-user experience better or faster should be a good thing, in my eyes... :?:
I'm not against this. The pages that contain sorted (categorized/grouped/filtered) lists are often very useful, and linking them from the "Additional Attribution Guides" sections makes sense. Not sure where I implied otherwise.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:23 pm
by PacificWR
messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:01 pm
PacificWR wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:26 pm
WOW! You have to be kidding? Why do you think Wiki dropped the old platform? Answer: It SURE wasn’t because of the content. It was because the old platform was out of date. This new platform (VAMWorld 2.0) has so much more to offer than cosmetic changes. To ignore technology is like living in the past. Would you really want to light your home at night with oil lamps? Same house same contents. I’ll choose electricity.
I'm not sure what you mean by Wiki dropping the old platform. VAMWorld moved because the old hosting site, Wikispaces, went under. I made the informed decision to build the wiki using Mediawiki and host it on AWS, cutting out the middleman. The Wikispaces framework provided for making all the cosmetic changes you are trying, just like Mediawiki does.
Direct quote form the Wiki web site:
"Wikispaces - is a social writing platform for education. Due to cost issues, classroom and free-level Wikispaces closed on July 31, 2018, while private Wikispaces closed on January 31, 2019.[5]

What do you think the high cost was they are talking about? It was maintaining the OLD platform. Microsoft does this all the time with it's version of Windows and so do a lot of other vendors. You had no choice but, to move to another platform. As far as the tool sets being the same....that is just not the case. One example is the Gallery mode. Just curious why you are bring the content now. It's nothing new.

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:30 pm
by TheYokel
messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:17 pm
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:10 pm
I'm not sure why you are so against sortable lists though. That makes no sense to me... Anything that makes the end-user experience better or faster should be a good thing, in my eyes... :?:
I'm not against this. The pages that contain sorted (categorized/grouped/filtered) lists are often very useful, and linking them from the "Additional Attribution Guides" sections makes sense. Not sure where I implied otherwise.
My apologies, i may have read into something that wasn't actually stated. I thought that was why you didn't want the rotated dies example put at the top of a page (because it would add to the links).

Re: 1879-S VAM page update.

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:32 pm
by PacificWR
TheYokel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:12 pm
messydesk wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:01 am
PacificWR wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:40 pm
One camp either does not want to see any changes (or very little) to take advantage of the new tool sets to improve this site.
New tool sets will not improve this site. Why don't you understand that? Correct content, and efficiency in accessing it will. I would much rather take advantage of knowledge people have to make the information on VAMWorld accurate and reliable, without that, cosmetic changes are at best MEANINGLESS.
I'm probably going to step on some toes, and for that i apologize up front...

But everything can be improved.

Making the tools you use to research the VAMs easier to use will only help us in finding the incorrect information that exists on here. There are plenty of people constantly searching listings for duplicate or incorrect information. I wouldn't have found the duplicate cap crack if that weren't the case. People ARE researching the pages. We just need to make the research easier to do in some cases.

Want to know what i want more than anything to be added to the site (aside from a new E listing I find)? A web-based clash overlay tool with rotatable dies. Hunting for transfer? Rotate the tool to line up the neck/wing line and the neck clash. You'd then know where every single transfer on the coin should be and where to look for. I already have a set of transparencies i made in Adobe to use myself after my last E hunt... But how seriously useful would that be to have on the site?

There are lots and lots of tools we could implement to making research easier and more effective.

If you really want to start with the content, we need to start with the one-photo or word-only phantom listings. Ghost listings are one of the most complained about aspects of content I've seen brought up since I've joined. Cataloguing should be one of the most important projects to tackle imo...

I've said I fear we are going to lose VAMs to phantom listings one day. God forbid i bring this up, but we aren't always going to have the people we rely on for answers to tell us what a word problem means.

And I'm all-in for sortable feature links. I believe every mint/year should have things like transfer and die break links you can click on to filter out the rest of the listings. You have to remember that there is a population of us that actively use this site while out picking. I shouldn't have to scroll through 135 listings, loading each listing separately, while cherry picking on some $#!%%¥ mobile network. I should be able to click "Listed Die Breaks" and have a page filtered specifically to die breaks.

If the 89-P page had that feature, the 1D1 and 1G break duplicates wouldn't have sat on the site for a year while being 4 listings apart from each other. It would have been found *a lot* sooner, I'm guessing.

Short version: research is importance #1... But tools help the research. We need both to work in unison...
TheYokel. your last point is spot on. There is no good reason why both cannot go on at the same time. In the IT world you have two main kinds of developers. 1. Application (content) 2. System (platform). The platform has to come first or the content does not matter. However, work on both can go on at the same time. Content and the platform it resides on can always be improved on. That is the way things work.