PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

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TheYokel
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PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:47 pm

Hellos and good morning all. Sorry to not have a coin to post this time, but I promise this coming week will make up for it lol. :twisted:

Hunting in graded slabs got me to researching, and now I'm confused as to if a Top-100 set registry is even possible to complete through PCGS anymore?

I've noticed that the contemporary counterfeits are no longer (it was 15 years ago now, but I'm still less than a year into this) certified through PCGS, although they are still very much a part of the Top-100. Is it heretofore impossible to 100/100 the set through PCGS if that is the case?

I understand there might be older, already certified examples that might be able to be added to a set registry... But most of my fun comes from the hunt itself... In finding a 1921 someone has on the discount shelf and realizing it's a wide reed, etc.

I bring this up because I'm up for my yearly membership dues and I'm deciding between PCGS and NGC for the year. I only join one per year based on what I'm collecting/grading at the moment (for example, NGC grades Franklins, Jeffersons, and Mercs *much* more strictly than PCGS and I will only send those in to NGC because I value the designation more). I used to save up raw Morgans for a year or two and swap to PCGS for a year to do a mass submission at once since Morgans used to tend to get about a 5% premium in a PCGS slab, but if I can't complete my personal Top 100 collection through them... Then what's the point of sending them the other 97?

Are NGC and ANACS the only two options for getting a complete Top 100 set slabbed in the current day?

For those that were collecting at the time it happened, how did it affect the then-current VAM collecting market? I know it says prices on the micro O's crashed hard, but what did it do to the Top 100 collecting market as a whole at the time? It's thankfully continued to grow since then, but it had to have an effect on the then-current collectors that may have been a couple coins from a full set and found out it would never be done...

That sounds heartbreaking just typing that lol...

Sorry for the long-winded post... Just sitting here with coffee and reading old articles, and this came to light and made me pose the question.

Have a great end to your weekend everyone! I'll be back next week with some :rainbow: :fire:...

-Ant :ugeek:
It's coming... :popcorn:

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by impairedsquirrel » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:09 pm

None of the big three TPGs will slab counterfeits anymore.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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TheYokel
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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:19 pm

impairedsquirrel wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:09 pm
None of the big three TPGs will slab counterfeits anymore.
Oh wow seriously? :(

I was looking at the varietyplus page from NGC and it still lists the 1896-O VAM-4. I'll have to call them tomorrow and ask if it's meant to be on there?

That really saddens me if so. I know it sounds silly but having them all in matching slabs that i submitted myself would have meant a lot... :(

Edit: this one...

Image
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DHalladay
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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by DHalladay » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:00 pm

The 3 counterfeit dates had a combined 95 coins graded by PCGS, 8 by NGC, and 209 by ANACS before they all stopped grading them. Certified examples rarely come up for sale anywhere, especially PCGS coins. Raw coins do. SEGS will put them in holders.

PCGS and ANACS initially offered to buy back any of the coins they graded, and some (not many) did take them up on it. I haven't heard if it that is still in effect. No one who has them seems inclined to let them go. Heritage also initially put a ban on selling them in auctions, although I don't know if it is still the case.

The last PCGS 1896 micro-O I saw on eBay was in an F12 in 2009 that brought $472, the last 1900 micro-O was an F15 in 2005 that brought $906, and the last 1902 micro-O was a VG10 two years ago that brought $355.
When in doubt... don't.

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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by vampicker » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:12 pm

It's all a moot point if you don't actually have the coins for the set. Seriously, the Micro O's won't be the last pieces you find if you are serious about building a set. Both the NGC and PCGS Registries no longer include the three pieces in question for their program. The guys that have complete sets in these registries also have their examples of Micro O's too. Honestly, who cares? Are you collecting VAMs or plastic? If you must have a public set that is 'complete' , the SSDC Registry is open to all members and the competition in this category is formidable.
often the crusher of hopes and dreams

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TheYokel
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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by TheYokel » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:44 pm

vampicker wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:12 pm
It's all a moot point if you don't actually have the coins for the set.
I'm slowly working on it. A few get checked off every month :) I think it's coming along respectively, anyways.

And le sigh... I know this is going to sound bad, but yes, I'm a sucker for matching sets when possible. Even my ASE collection is compartmentalized into companies and labels for each type of bird, and I've paid slight premiums to have the matching label before. I always buy the coin first and holder second... But i would be lying if i said it didn't play a minute part in the decision :?

It's a frivolous investment on a holder i might not ever see returned, but it pleases me to look at, and it's my collection after-all :)
DHalladay wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:00 pm
The 3 counterfeit dates had a combined 95 coins graded by PCGS, 8 by NGC, and 209 by ANACS before they all stopped grading them. Certified examples rarely come up for sale anywhere, especially PCGS coins. Raw coins do. SEGS will put them in holders.

PCGS and ANACS initially offered to buy back any of the coins they graded, and some (not many) did take them up on it. I haven't heard if it that is still in effect. No one who has them seems inclined to let them go. Heritage also initially put a ban on selling them in auctions, although I don't know if it is still the case.

The last PCGS 1896 micro-O I saw on eBay was in an F12 in 2009 that brought $472, the last 1900 micro-O was an F15 in 2005 that brought $906, and the last 1902 micro-O was a VG10 two years ago that brought $355.
Thanks for the history lesson on slabbed counterfeits boss :) I've seen the SEGS offered a couple times and wondered why there were multiples slabbed from the same TPG, and now it makes sense thank you.

Man i wonder what one of those 8 NGC attributed ones would go for today, lol :)
Last edited by TheYokel on Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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vampicker
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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by vampicker » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:49 pm

OK, that's something that you're not alone in. Build your set, then get the matching plastic you want. They (myself included) will always sell new plastic. Just not for the Micro O's
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JohnGoldsmith
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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by JohnGoldsmith » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:27 am

SEGS will holder any VAM "numbered" counterfeit Morgan. However it will say on the label. "Not of U.S. origin".
I have several as they are the only TPG that will VAM the coin and holder it.
If you have any, and need them slabbed, you might need to get it done ASAP.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:36 am

Last I knew, ICG will also holder and attribute the counterfeits.

twohawks
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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by twohawks » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:45 am

Below is a photo of a Newer ICG graded and attributed 1902 Micro O Top 100 VAM-3
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DHalladay
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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by DHalladay » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:20 pm

The coin above is far and away the nicest of any of the counterfeit micro-Os I have seen in 15 years. It is a true unicorn.
When in doubt... don't.

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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by impairedsquirrel » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:54 pm

I gotta be honest, I love how ICG labeled that one!
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:02 pm

I found this one a few years back and thought maybe it would tie Russ' coin, but alas, it was not to be.
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DHalladay
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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by DHalladay » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:03 pm

Another unicorn! :o
But I wonder why ICG left off the "Top 100" notation.
When in doubt... don't.

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Re: PCGS Top-100 Registry... Impossible To Finish? The Curious Case of the Contemporary Counterfeits...

Post by TheYokel » Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:24 pm

Dang! Excellent coins you guys :D. Picking that mint state example must have had you excited for months! Please tell me you picked it yourself... Those are such awesome finds :D

I think I'm going to go to the next SoCal coin show. Morgans to be cherry picked... As far as the eyes can see... *swoon*
It's coming... :popcorn:

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