1921-S questions

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Pareidoliac
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1921-S questions

Post by Pareidoliac » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:56 am

Can someone tell me what would cause the following:

(1) What appears to be sunken field around obverse right stars?
(2) Sunken area above PL at rim?
(3) Are these a type of die trails lines behind A in STATES or something else?
Attachments
1921-S A in STATES.jpg
1921-S A in STATES.jpg (169.98 KiB) Viewed 4296 times
1921-s PL rim .jpg
1921-s PL rim .jpg (143.64 KiB) Viewed 4296 times
1921-S obv stars 2.jpg
1921-S obv stars 2.jpg (171.25 KiB) Viewed 4296 times
1921-S  obv stars.jpg
1921-S obv stars.jpg (142.88 KiB) Viewed 4296 times

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ChiefRet.
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by ChiefRet. » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:03 am

Wow...
I haven't seen this, but wait for others to respond.
Could you back it off enough, and post a full obverse and reverse shot.

fogie
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by fogie » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:50 pm

Funky

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Raybob15239
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by Raybob15239 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:56 pm

Die fatigue?
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Pareidoliac
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by Pareidoliac » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:17 pm

Here are more photos. Also note the OF on reverse.
Attachments
1921-S upper rev.jpg
1921-S upper rev.jpg (80.28 KiB) Viewed 4251 times
1921-S lower obv.jpg
1921-S lower obv.jpg (123.52 KiB) Viewed 4251 times
1921-S rev.jpg
1921-S rev.jpg (206.11 KiB) Viewed 4251 times
1921-S obv.jpg
1921-S obv.jpg (194.49 KiB) Viewed 4251 times

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messydesk
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by messydesk » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:07 pm

The stuff on the reverse is feed finger scrapes. Not sure about the obverse. As fogie says, "funky."
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Pareidoliac
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by Pareidoliac » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:28 pm

So this is a feed finger scrape, or "feed finger gouge" that, according to the VW definitions page, can be a feature on the certain VAMs, just like the mysterious "necklace" markings appear on certain VAMs and aid in identifying the VAM. Below are the feed finger VAMs for the 1921-S found on the VW definitions page:

1921 S Feed Fingers
1921-S VAM-1H
1921-S VAM-1AJ Denticle Impressions Above Arrow Feathers
1921-S VAM-1AN Die Gouges Above Wings
1921-S VAM-1BF Scribbling Die Scratches #15
1921-S VAM-1CB Clashed Obverse n
1921-S VAM-1CI Die File Lines and Over Polished Obverse and Reverse
1921-S VAM-1CR Die File Lines Obverse
1921-S VAM-1CV Die Polishing Reverse
1921-S VAM-1CW Die File Lines Obverse & Reverse, Die Gouge F
1921-S VAM-31 Scribbling Die Scratches, Slightly Doubled Profile

My 1921-S doesn't match any of those. So, as soon as I can identify the VAM on my coin, I can possibly add it to the list.

One more unusual thing about this coin: There are four circles, or rings, on the obverse. One is below the nostril (a Morgan "nose ring"!). The other three are on the profile at forehead and front-facing hair near PL. Thoughts on what these mysterious rings are?

Thanks.
Attachments
1921-S forehead.jpg
1921-S forehead.jpg (113.02 KiB) Viewed 4215 times
1921-S nose.jpg
1921-S nose.jpg (145.89 KiB) Viewed 4215 times

Pareidoliac
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by Pareidoliac » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:30 am

Also a ring in the L of PLURIBUS.

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messydesk
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by messydesk » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:30 pm

Something may be or may have been stuck to the coin in those spots and left a stain. Might want to poke them with a stick.
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vamsterdam
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by vamsterdam » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:54 pm

I think we are seeing some type of residue on the coin. I think an ammonia dip would remove most of it. dip and rinse.

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CascadeChris
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by CascadeChris » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:25 pm

My initial reaction was stain. Acetone soak first then warm water rinse to remove residue then quickly Dip her and show us post dip pics..
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Pareidoliac
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by Pareidoliac » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:53 am

I gave it an acetone bath as suggested. No effect. I also lightly ran the tip of a toothpick over the rings. As I ran the tip of the toothpick over the rings under the nose and along the profile, the toothpick "stuck" or "fell" into the ring perimeter and I could feel the indentation. The ring perimeters do not appear to be raised but rather appear to be punched into the field. If you've ever seen a locksmith punch his store name onto a key, it has that appearance. One of the rings along the profile (the middle one at hair line) appears to be in the field and in the hair but I can't be sure because the part in the hair might be a small bag mark; all the other rings seem to be peeking out from behind relief elements. There are two more rings discovered, one in the E before PLURIBUS and one in the upper loop of the B in PLURIBUS.

I am still intrigued by the wavy line bouncing off the right stars, lower obverse. At first I thought maybe this was a laquer but upon close inspection it is decidedly not; it is part of the coin. Between the fifth star and the rim, the wavy line appears to have die polishing lines over top of it. Interestingly, the depth of the field changes from one side of the wavy line to the other with the side toward the rim being higher.

Pareidoliac
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Re: 1921-S questions

Post by Pareidoliac » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:59 am

Bear with me here. Long post offering some theories on (1) the ringlets, and (2) the wavy line by stars.

First, the ringlets. Searching the Internet, I found an article (Coin World, Mike Diamond, August 2016) about seven bumps on the surface of a coin that confuse collectors. Two types of bumps can leave circular marks: One is plating blisters; the other occluded gas bubbles. I’ve ruled out plating blisters because they “are the exclusive province of copper-plated zinc cents.” So maybe the ringlets are occluded has bubbles; if so, their occurrence at the edge of relief elements would perhaps be caused by the pressure of the strike at the point where relief meets field (an easy point of escape for trapped gas) thus forcing gas upward at those spots. Thoughts?

Now, the wavy line by the stars: One theory is that this line was once a die crack that was polished without much evidence of polishing except by the fifth star. Another theory is sunken die error. From the same article, I quote:

“3. Die subsidence (sunken die) errors

The surface of a die will some­times sink in, leaving a recess into which coin metal rises. This form of die deformation is presumably the result of abnormally soft die steel. The zone of subsidence will sometimes show cracking along its margin. In the absence of such cracks, the edge will be softly defined. The design may be indistinct where it crosses the zone of subsidence. It rather depends on the recess’ size, depth, and degree of deformation. Die subsidence errors are often associated with wide die cracks and split dies.”

Thoughts?

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