Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

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weth
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Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by weth » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:26 pm

Hi gang,

Just got my package back from LVA, and wanted to report three 1883P kills, with one being redesignated. I’ll post the letter and photos tomorrow.

Die studies can get sort of strange. There is the temptation to forge ahead with one’s own nomenclature, but like many other silver dollar aficionados, I have chosen to work within Mr. Van Allen’s structure. Hence sometimes I get stuck in trying to convince him of certain things. My submission to him this time had two purposes - one to try again to kill something that didn’t exist, and secondly to point out that a discovery coin wasn’t really what it seemed to be…

The singular gap in my SSDC 1883P collection is the VAM 18. I don’t have one because, well, I don’t think it exists. A clashed, quadrupled-star example was submitted to LVA, and he called it VAM 18A. LVA has never, to the best of my knowledge, designated any unclashed version as VAM 18. After I noticed that the 83P VAM 7 had some minor tripling and quadrupling of the stars, I started to wonder whether the VAM 18A discovery was simply a VAM 7A. I had tried previously to make my case of this to LVA, but he didn’t see it that way, and claimed to need to see the VAM 18A discovery coin to be sure. I asked the current owner of the VAM 18A discovery coin to submit it to LVA for clarification; he seemed amenable to doing so, but it didn’t seem like something urgent to him. Anyway, I tried again with this most recent submission, in that I sent a nice VAM 7A example and an ANACS MS63 VAM 18A example that matched the 7A. Much to my surprise, LVA agreed that the original 18A was likely a 7A, so he killed the VAM 18 and VAM 18A. Woohoo! Hooray!

Now the second reason for this submission: I’ve had an odd relationship with two different 1883P die varieties that I will at first call A and B. A is what I believed to be VAM 1A, being a pitted obverse die that became clashed in its late die state; both ANACS and VSS labeled this same die variety pretty consistently as VAM 1A. Coin B I first submitted to LVA in 2014; he said that it had the “same die clash at jaw-neck junction of 1A pictured in 2003 VAM Supplement. Don’t see a clear clashed n at neck. Die wear much have erased clashed n. VAM 1.” I knew that this coin didn’t match the VAM 1A die pair, so I at first called it VAM 1 Weth Die 7. Later on, in 2015, in an attempt to differentiate A and B, I sent full die progressions of both types to LVA. He called the double clashed version of coin A the VAM 1A, and noted that an EDS clashed version of Coin B was listable as the VAM 39A, so what was VAM 1 Weth Die 7 became VAM 39 LDS. Now, the “problem” came when I saw the actual 1883P VAM 1A discovery coin up for sale on eBay. Since it seemed like a good thing for someone doing an 83P die study to own, I snarfed it up. Well, upon close examination, it turned out to be not coin A but coin B - a VAM 39 LDS! So I submitted this discovery coin, along with VAM 39, 39A, and “VAM 1A” examples to LVA. He agreed that the 1A discovery coin was actually a VAM 39. Although I tried to humbly suggest that perhaps it was best just to revise the listing of the VAM 1A, LVA thought it best to kill the designation. Hence, what is documented on the VAM 1A page (other than the discovery photo) is now called the VAM 49. LVA seemed to talk himself out of seeing the clash on the example that I provided, so maybe someone might care to convince him that a VAM 49A exists. For now, though, whether it is EDS or LDS it’s a VAM 49.

TL:DR Version

The 1883P VAM 18 / 18A are killed - they’re redundant with VAM 7 / 7A
The original 1883P VAM 1A discovery coin was actually a VAM 39 LDS
The current 1883P VAM 1A designation is killed, relisted as VAM 49

tmanhg
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by tmanhg » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:38 pm

Great work Tom !!!

vamsterdam
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by vamsterdam » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:08 pm

Leroy told me that the v18a discovery piece would stand as a discovery piece but would change from v18a to v7a discovery piece because it was submitted before v7a.

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PacificWR
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by PacificWR » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:40 pm

Nice work Tom.

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:07 pm

Congrats. I wish more folks would do die studies and put multiple coins together to tell Leroy a story rather than send singleton coins.

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alefzero
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by alefzero » Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:31 am

SSDC Registry is updated to reflect that.

weth
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by weth » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:44 pm

Attached is the letter and plate photos!
Attachments
weth_LVAplate_122918.jpg
weth_LVAplate_122918.jpg (157.62 KiB) Viewed 3391 times
weth_LVAletter_122918.jpg
weth_LVAletter_122918.jpg (158.18 KiB) Viewed 3391 times

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PacificWR
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by PacificWR » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:08 pm

Tom,

Do you need help with the pages?

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by impairedsquirrel » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:23 am

WTG Tom!!
Ping, ping, ping... ;)
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:41 am

I am not trying to hijack Tom's thread, but does anyone stop and ask why kills are necessary in the first place? What causes duplicate listings, and what causes multiple different VAM listings of the same die pair in different die stages/states?

Food for thought hopefully.

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impairedsquirrel
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by impairedsquirrel » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:27 am

Discovery mongers, Alan... mostly discovery mongers.
Not trying to be overly negative, but a lot of these issues come down to someone seeing something new on a known VAM and getting it listed as something else without due research.
I know your question was rhetorical, but I was compelled to answer.

Two points for the record:
1) Tom is one of the ones "doing it the right way" and
2) Getting a proper kill is MUCH more difficult than getting a listing! You basically have to prove that something you can't see doesn't exist...
Last edited by impairedsquirrel on Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
I go totally NUTS for WOW! VAMs!! Or is that from WOW! VAMs?

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andywoj00
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by andywoj00 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:30 am

Got everything updated with the exception of the 1A topic on the letter. Not quite sure what to do with that. @ PacificWR can you assist?
Thanks.
Andy

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:41 am

Good points Rob. Let's let this conversation die and just congratulate Tom. If this discussion needs further exercise, a new thread can be started. Way to go Tom!

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PacificWR
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by PacificWR » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:01 am

andywoj00 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:30 am
Got everything updated with the exception of the 1A topic on the letter. Not quite sure what to do with that. @ PacificWR can you assist?
Thanks.
Andy
I went ahead and delisted VAM-1A. Nice work.

weth
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by weth » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:36 pm

Thank you all for your help with the page updates!
alefzero wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:31 am
SSDC Registry is updated to reflect that.
Thank you, John!
As "the guy doing the 1883P series" you must know that it is soooo satisfying to finally, for the first time, see that SSDC set be "100% complete".

vamsterdam
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by vamsterdam » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:56 pm

Am I wrong, or do I see a lot of comments aimed at me for submitting the v18a? When I sent it in, it was an unlisted die clash. I did note the quadrupled-sextuplets stars, but Leroy gave it v18a rather than v7a. And I did not have the full pictures of vam 7 in hand to say it was a clashed vam 7. If I had complete photos that showed me it had multiply jibbed stars I would have sent it in as a clashed v7 with letter transfer.

vamsterdam
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by vamsterdam » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:27 pm

And congratulations tom, for getting all of these cleared up. There are many non existent vams still waiting to be killed, and duplicates waiting to be knocked off.

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RMG1883CC
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by RMG1883CC » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:59 pm

GREAT WORK Tom - Andy - Wayne !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

weth
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by weth » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:05 pm

@vamsterdam - I wasn't directing any animosity toward your discovery, Brian, not at all. As you say, you sent in an example of a clash that was unlisted at the time. I do see a general trend, however, especially in folks new to this scene, toward the mentality of "I don't recognize it, so I'll send it to LVA". As mentioned, this can lead to spurious listings that can be difficult to correct later on.

Hey folks-who-can-edit: can you take a look at the 1883P VAM 1 page? The grouping and pagination of the photos is slightly off; the reverse of Die 1 is showing up as the first photo in the Die 2 section. Thanks for any edits you can make!

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messydesk
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Re: Back from LVA - three 1883P kills! (one inadvertent)

Post by messydesk » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:44 pm

weth wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:05 pm
@vamsterdam - I wasn't directing any animosity toward your discovery, Brian, not at all. As you say, you sent in an example of a clash that was unlisted at the time. I do see a general trend, however, especially in folks new to this scene, toward the mentality of "I don't recognize it, so I'll send it to LVA". As mentioned, this can lead to spurious listings that can be difficult to correct later on.

Hey folks-who-can-edit: can you take a look at the 1883P VAM 1 page? The grouping and pagination of the photos is slightly off; the reverse of Die 1 is showing up as the first photo in the Die 2 section. Thanks for any edits you can make!
Whoa! The conversion script got thrown off by seeing "full coin photos" on one line and started grouping things together that shouldn't be. I'll fix it.

Edit: All fixed. Much better.
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

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