1921 B over S in "PLURIBUS"

[keilg1]

Honestly I'd recommend picking up a USB microscope for your own use. My 80 year old dad has one and loves it. Not too expensive, too, anymore so no real financial disincentive - but huge hobby incentive!

With ease you'll be able to capture photos like I just got:

WIN_20230322_07_39_36_Pro.jpg (160.06 KiB) Viewed 317 times

For those of you not in the know, this is a 78-S VAM-22...

This microscope cost me less than $60 and has helped me find more fun varieties (discovery coins or not) than I can count.

Again, good luck and keep up the exploration and research.

[RogerB]

Think of the USB 'scope this way: It will cost you 1 BU silver dollar.

[Cestor01]

Honestly I'd recommend picking up a USB microscope for your own use.

Great suggestion! I am not very technical, but will look into it. Thank you.

[Cestor01]

OK, I just got my microscope, and it is awesome! Thank you for the suggestion keilg1. There is absolutely no doubt the is an S over the B, you can even see the file lines where they tried to remove it.

WIN_20230329_21_33_13_Pro.jpg (147.14 KiB) Viewed 265 times

You can also see at the bottom, there is part of a serif.
Compare it to the overlay

BoverS.jpg (29.83 KiB) Viewed 265 times

and it is nearly a perfect match.

WIN_20230329_21_33_13_Pro.jpg (147.14 KiB) Viewed 265 times

[ljs123]

Sorry, but all I see is common contact marks.
It is not an attempt to remove an S over B.
I know that’s not what you want to hear.
Great work with the close up photo.

[Cestor01]

Sorry, but all I see is common contact marks.
It is not an attempt to remove an S over B.
I know that’s not what you want to hear.
Great work with the close up photo.

I don't care what I hear. It is unimaginably clear to me, and I think there has to be an effort to not see it. I came here to see if this was something that was known, it clearly is not. Of course, I have the benefit of focusing up and down and comparing this letter to others. But it is absolutely clear in the photos, there are high points in the shape of an S on top of the B, and the points that are not in the shape of an S are all 100% lower where the areas not belonging to an S would appropriately be missing. If you choose not to see it, then of course, you won't.

I came on here to get answers. I didn't understand how this could happen, but through the process of trying to explain it, I realized the answer, and the only way it could happen is transferring the Galvano to to Master Hub. It could not happen in any other part of the process.

I came back on here to provide those that choose to look at the photos with an open mind what I found. You have that opportunity, if I can provide anything else to further clarify, please let me know.

[ljs123]

Sorry, but all I see is common contact marks.
It is not an attempt to remove an S over B.
I know that’s not what you want to hear.
Great work with the close up photo.

I don't care what I hear. It is unimaginably clear to me, and I think there has to be an effort to not see it. I came here to see if this was something that was known, it clearly is not. Of course, I have the benefit of focusing up and down and comparing this letter to others. But it is absolutely clear in the photos, there are high points in the shape of an S on top of the B, and the points that are not in the shape of an S are all 100% lower where the areas not belonging to an S would appropriately be missing. If you choose not to see it, then of course, you won't.

I came on here to get answers. I didn't understand how this could happen, but through the process of trying to explain it, I realized the answer, and the only way it could happen is transferring the Galvano to to Master Hub. It could not happen in any other part of the process.

I came back on here to provide those that choose to look at the photos with an open mind what I found. You have that opportunity, if I can provide anything else to further clarify, please let me know.

I understand that is absolutely clear to you in the photos.
Going to the s over B overlay that you are showing. Is that s overlay supposed to be from the S in STATES from the reverse of the coin?

[ljs123]

If you really want to get to the truth, then you should drop the S/D at this point and supply photos that allow us to attribute the VAM. Once we attribute the VAM, we can then look for other examples of that same VAM to compare the letter B.

Please take a breath for a minute and think what you are telling all of us that are trying to help you.
You are accusing us of seeing what we want to see, or not seeing something that we choose not to see.
The mind is a funny thing.
Maybe all of us that do this a bunch really are trying to help you see something differently than you choose to see it.
I really only want to help you.

Like I said, if you want to get to the truth, the best way at this point is to get the VAM attribution.

[Cestor01]

OK, I took an extreme closeup photo and enhanced it, outlined the area of the S with red. Untouched photo is first. Don't look at the contact areas, look at the raised areas on top of the B.

Bcloseup.jpg (154.06 KiB) Viewed 252 times

Here is one with the S area outlined in red where the S would have been before engraving the B over it on the Hub. (Please forgive the artwork)

Bcloseup.jpg (154.06 KiB) Viewed 252 times

[Cestor01]

If you really want to get to the truth, then you should drop the S/D at this point and supply photos that allow us to attribute the VAM. Once we attribute the VAM, we can then look for other examples of that same VAM to compare the letter B.

The VAM is irrelevant, but I will give it a shot. I have tried to let you guys see this. I am not trying to convince you, but I am frustrated that I can't get you to see something that is obvious. I am really trying to do this for your benefit more than mine. I will post the best photos I can so you can try to attribute it. Looking at the B, try not to look at the contact points, look at the raised area above the B, both contact areas and non-contact. Of course, it isn't perfectly smooth but it is obvious once you see it..

[ljs123]

If you really want to get to the truth, then you should drop the S/D at this point and supply photos that allow us to attribute the VAM. Once we attribute the VAM, we can then look for other examples of that same VAM to compare the letter B.

The VAM is irrelevant, but I will give it a shot. I have tried to let you guys see this. I am not trying to convince you, but I am frustrated that I can't get you to see something that is obvious. I am really trying to do this for your benefit more than mine. I will post the best photos I can so you can try to attribute it. Looking at the B, try not to look at the contact points, look at the raised area above the B, both contact areas and non-contact. Of course, it isn't perfectly smooth but it is obvious once you see it..

The truth is in the VAM.
Your statement that the VAM is irrelevant is wrong.
If this is an S/D from the Die, then it is an S/D on every minted coin of that same VAM.
We find the VAM and compare the D on every example of that same VAM, then we know the truth of that VAM and die. That’s the way it works with VAMming. You have to prove it. Sometimes it takes years.

[Cestor01]

OK, hopefully these are enough to help you identify a VAM.

[Cestor01]

[/quote]


The truth is in the VAM.
Your statement that the VAM is irrelevant is wrong.
If this is an S/D from the Die, then it is an S/D on every minted coin of that same VAM.
We find the VAM and compare the D on every example of that same VAM, then we know the truth of that VAM and die. That’s the way it works with VAMming. You have to prove it. Sometimes it takes years.
[/quote]

I apologize, you are probably quite correct. Let me know if you need more photos. (By the way, it is the B in PLURIBUS, no D)

[ljs123]

S/B
Glad you understood regardless of my misprint.

[Cestor01]

Here are some details. No Die cracks. No scribbles in eagle crotch area that I can see. Maybe some damage vs post mint damage near the eagle's beak. A tiny die chip in the e of we, and some filing gunk around the trust, but is minimal. Possibly some minimal doubling in STATES OF, but probably strike doubling. Looks like a very early die state to me, but I am not a VAMmer.

[Cestor01]

Oh yes, and 16 berries.

[Cestor01]

Some more details

[Cestor01]

Maybe VAM 63

[Eschaton]

I figured it out, on April 1st we’ll discover this was all just an elaborate April Fool’s prank

[keilg1]

I figured it out, on April 1st we’ll discover this was all just an elaborate April Fool’s prank

Funny.

On a more serious note, I'll vote even stronger that there is no letter overages happening here. There are way too many alternative and easier solutions/explanations than what is being proposed: Ockham's razor being the most appropriate approach here.

All possible alternative varieties need to be ruled out, for sure, as is the standard approach here (and in good research).

Glad you got the scope as it is a tremendous help as are the additional pictures. Next is an open mind to hear what more experienced voices have to say. "I don't care what I hear" is almost a game-ender for me but I suspect this was an old habit of reacting to what was happening - if you didn't truly care you wouldn't be asking for input.

@ljs123 - "The mind is a funny thing" -- what, are you a neuroscientist, too! Or just a parent...

There is an answer if we can all be patient enough to find it. And, yes, telling jokes along the way...