Silver Dollar 1904 O

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lhnumis1
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:40 pm

Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by lhnumis1 » Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:55 pm

I would like to give a VAM designation to this old dollar in my collection. Please find description and digital images(others available) below. Trust these may be of some help. All comments & suggestions welcome.

OBVERSE DIAGNOSTICS:

III2

DATE APPEARS SLANTED AND SET AT A NORMAL, 2.50.

THE '1' EXHIBITS A TINY UPWARD SPIKE EMERGING FROM THE UPPER LEFT TIP OF THE TOP LEFT SERIF @ AN ANGLE OF 120°(EVIDENCE OF DOUBLING?). APPEARS TO BE SLIGHTLY DOUBLED BELOW THE UPPER SERIF.

THE '9' IS SLIGHTLY DOUBLED @: THE OUTSIDE LOWER LEFT & BOTTOM OF THE UPPER LOOP; & ALSO DBLD. @THE OUTSIDE BOTTOM RIGHT.SEE DIGITAL.

THE PROFILE APPEARS SLIGHTLY DOUBLED FROM THE TIARA LEFT OF THE 'L' IN 'LIBERTY' TO THE HAIR ABOVE THE FOREHEAD, THE FOREHEAD ITSELF, THE NOSE, LIPS, CHIN AND THE JAW TO THE JAW-NECK JUNCTION.

THE TOP OF THE LIBERTY CAP APPEARS SLIGHTLY DBLD.

THE 'T' IN 'LIBERTY' EXHIBITS A WEAK RAISED LINE STARTING AT THE TOP BETWEEN THE UPRIGHT & THE UPPER LEFT SERIF;IT PROCEEDS DOWNWARD AT A 45° ANGLE AND TERMINATES @ THE JUNCTION OF THE UPRIGHT & THE UPPER CROSSBAR.

THE LOWER HAIR APPEARS SLIGHTLY DOUBLED ITERMITTANTLY FROM THE DESIGNER INITIAL TO THE HAIR ABOVE STAR 4 ON THE RIGHT.

A WEAK DIE CRACK IS NOTED EMERGING FROM STAR 7 ON THE LEFT AND CONTINUING CW TO THE TOP LEFT SERIF OF THE 'E' OF 'E PLURIBUS UNUM'. IT CONTINUES CLOCKWISE THROUGH THE TOP OF THE 'P' AND TERMINATES AT THE RIM ABOVE THE RIGHT SERIF OF THE UPRIGHT OF THE 'L'.

IT IS NOTED THAT THERE IS A PERIFERAL DIE GOUGE IN THE DENTICLES ABOVE AND TO THE LEFT OF THE FIRST 'U' IN 'UMUM',ENDING IN THE SPACE BETWEEN 2 DENTICLES ABOVE THE SEPERATOR .

REVERSE DIAGNOSTICS:

C4s

THE 'O' MINTMARK IS SET A BIT HIGH,A BIT RIGHT & TILTED A BIT LEFT(CCW).
THE 'O' IS SLIGHTLY DBLD @ THE INSIDE UPPER LEFT.

3 SPIKES EMERGE TO THE RIGHT INTO THE FIELD FROM THE LEFT LEG FEATHERS OF THE EAGLE.

TWO WEAK SPIKES EMERGE TO THE LEFT FROM THE RIGHT LEG FEATHERS OF THE EAGLE.

THE LEFT BOW RIBBON END POINT TOUCHES THE BOW KNOT; THE RIGHT ONE DOES NOT TOUCH THE KNOT.

THE BOW VOID AND ITS SURROUNDINGS EXHIBIT HEAVY DIAGONAL AND HORIZONTAL DIE POLISHING LINES.

MANY WEAK & STRONG RAISED POLISHING LINES SURROUND THE EAGLE'S LEGS;THEY ALSO EXTEND BELOW & THRU THE UPPER TAIL FEATHERS.

THE 'N' OF 'ONE' IS SLIGHTLY DBLD. @ THE BOTTOM OF THE TOP LEFT SERIF.

THE 'O' OF 'DOLLAR' IS DOUBLED @ THE OUTSIDE BOTTOM LEFT & SLIGHTLY DBLD. @ THE INSIDE TOP LEFT. THE 1ST 'L' OF 'DOLLAR' IS DBLD ON THE UPPER LEFT SIDE OF THE UPRIGHT. THE 'A' IS DOUBLED @ OUTSIDE LEFT & INSIDE RIGHT OF THE UPPER 'LOOP';THE CROSSBAR EXHIBITS 2 DIAGONAL DIE CHIPS @ THE BOTTOM. THE 'R' IS DOUBLED @ THE INSIDE UPPER RIGHT OF THE LOOP,& THE BOTTOM RIGHT OF THE MIDDLE CROSSBAR.

-NITE- STATES OF
-ME---A. THE LAST 'A' DOUBLED @ BOTTOM OF CROSSBAR. THE BALANCE OF THOSE DOUBLED SLIGHTLY TOWARD THE RIM.

THE LOWEST ARROW SHAFT IS SLIGHTLY DBLD. BEHIND THE ARROWPOINT. THE LOWEST ARROW FEATHER IS DBLD.

THE TAILFEATHERS EXHIBIT STRONG RAISED POLISHING LINES.

THE OLIVE LEAF BRANCH AND LEAF CLUSTERS EXHIBIT STRONG RAISED POLISHING LINES IN THEIR SURROUNDING FIELDS.

LASTLY, THE REVERSE APPEARS TO BE ROTATED APPROXIMATELY 7.25° CCW.

THE PIECE AT HAND APPEARS TO HAVE A REVERSE WHICH IS DIFFRENT IN DETAIL FROM OTHER VAM 1904O REVERSES. THE OBVERSE ALSO APPEARS TO BE UNLIKE IN DETAIL FROM OBVERSE VAMS OF 1904O.
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBVA.jpg
OBVERSE 1904 O
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBVA.jpg (60.82 KiB) Viewed 437 times
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV2.jpg
DBLD. '19'
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV2.jpg (41.57 KiB) Viewed 437 times
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV3.jpg
DBLD. PROFILE
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV3.jpg (38.66 KiB) Viewed 437 times
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEREVA.jpg
REVERSE 1904 O
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEREVA.jpg (65.84 KiB) Viewed 437 times
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEREV2.jpg
BOW & SURROUNDING FILE LINES, DBLD. HIGH 'O'
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEREV2.jpg (66 KiB) Viewed 437 times

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:36 pm

@LateDateMorganGuy there is a note to contact you about this MM position when it comes up. C4c????
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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:42 pm

you will have to forgive ,me, if it is c4s , I did not see a reverse picture in the guide that high
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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:09 pm

k you can call it c4S ,,, not sure what you have . good luck
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DHalladay
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by DHalladay » Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:46 pm

Great photos!
When in doubt... don't.

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:34 am

does it look like this?
Screenshot 2023-02-05 173300.jpg
Screenshot 2023-02-05 173300.jpg (46.92 KiB) Viewed 402 times
and that MM placement does not appear to match yours , your placement resembles v 10 but the polish lines in the bow don't line up ( to me anyway]
Screenshot 2023-02-05 171442.jpg
Screenshot 2023-02-05 171442.jpg (102.93 KiB) Viewed 402 times
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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:44 am

Generally we ask for folks to try and attribute coins themselves. Can I assume you have done so?

lhnumis1
Posts: 91
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by lhnumis1 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:05 am

Thank you to all who have responded. Am not quite sure what to do at this point...I have tried to attribute the item but have not succeeded to my satisfaction. I will post several other digital images of the item below, and trust this may also help.
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV4.jpg
nose,lips,chin slight doubling
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV4.jpg (61.93 KiB) Viewed 363 times
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV5.jpg
top of liberty cap, slight doubling
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV5.jpg (46.62 KiB) Viewed 363 times
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV6.jpg
bottom of hair above 4 & star, slight doubling
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV6.jpg (56.78 KiB) Viewed 363 times
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV7.jpg
die gouge in denticles above first U(of UNUM) & separator
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEOBV7.jpg (45.01 KiB) Viewed 363 times
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEREV3.jpg
3 small spikes emerging from eagle's left lnto the field
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEREV3.jpg (41.96 KiB) Viewed 363 times

keilg1
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by keilg1 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:00 am

Encouraging you to continue asking questions when you've hit an impasse (assuming you've done your own homework as @LateDateMorganGuy questioned).

If you've not tried this yet, you can always do a search on the primary page for, in this example, "profile" as many of the descriptions have mention of a doubled profile in them. I.e., head to http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compu ... 904-O_VAMs, hit Ctrl-F (the hotkey for 'find'), type 'profile' in the search box and all mentions will be highlighted -- I dont' recomment 'doubled profile' as the search because some of them don't have the word 'doubled' immediately preceding 'profile' (e.g., VAM-26).

I then Ctrl-click each highlighted variety to open in a new tab and easily march through them to find a match.

Or not as what might happen in your case. I believe you'll not find yours this way, unfortunately, because 'double profile' is not mentioned in the main description. It IS, however, on the variety page...

You show nice spikes on the eagle's left leg and mention some on the right leg...

And you mention the marker in the T of LIBERTY...

... all of these match up with a variety described even if your coin might not look exactly like the pictures on the variety page...

I'll give you a hint but not the answer: If you begin at VAM-1 and march sequentially past VAM-5 you've gone too far... and look for a 'Doubled 19' as you've said you've seen on your coin...

Am I right @LateDateMorganGuy or @Kurt28?

Happy hunting and, again, always encourage you to ask questions!

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Kurt28
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by Kurt28 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:08 am

You're on the right track, I believe that most of us do not want to deprive you of the joy of making your own identification. Great pictures and attention to detail.

keilg1
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by keilg1 » Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:36 am

Kurt28 wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:08 am
You're on the right track, I believe that most of us do not want to deprive you of the joy of making your own identification. Great pictures and attention to detail.
You rock, mate. Hope you're well!

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LateDateMorganGuy
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:01 pm

I remember a time when I sent a 1902-O to Leroy and mentioned a coin I sent him had a doubled profile. His response was something like, "when is a doubled profile a doubled profile?"

The subject coin demonstrates two things to me. One is the listings are and were necessarily brief and do not mention every detail for a certain VAM. The other is that photos of drop dead PUPs do not necessarily show up on the VAM pages here.

In this case, the drop dead PUPs are mentioned in the VAM listing, but are not represented by a photo on the VAM page. It might help if someone added the gouges by Eagle's left leg, and right leg if possible.

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UNCLE BINGO
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by UNCLE BINGO » Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:38 pm

@keilg1 RE "
I'll give you a hint but not the answer: If you begin at VAM-1 and march sequentially past VAM-5 you've gone too far... and look for a 'Doubled 19' as you've said you've seen on your coin..."

You nailed it ,, I even looked at it yesterday and blew right past ,,,,, sorry .... the attribution guides could use a little maintenance . that one should have been easy ,, MY bad :lol:
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lhnumis1
Posts: 91
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by lhnumis1 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:15 pm

Many thanks to all who responded. It appears that VAM3 is the one. After much thought about die wear (erosion)(fatigue), I convinced myself that my example is one of a "late die state" & that the VAM3 example is one of an "early die state".

Below, for completeness, please find a digital image of the die spikes emerging from the eagle's right leg feathers.
Again, thanks to all who helped.
SRS
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEREV4.jpg
Die spikes emerging from eagle's right leg feathers.
DOLLAR1904ODBLD19DBLDPROFILEREV4.jpg (54.8 KiB) Viewed 298 times

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Kurt28
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by Kurt28 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:33 pm

"when is a doubled profile a doubled profile?" I've had similar questions concerning date placement - near, far or slanted? And mint mark position and tilt. My education is a work in progress.

As for PUP photos to be added to the VAM listing pages, I think Ihnumis1 has provided a few, especially the spikes on the eagles left leg. Someone might add it to the listing. I'd do it, but I am not confident in my computer editing skills.

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messydesk
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by messydesk » Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:16 pm

I'll keep beating this drum. Search can be your friend.
search04ospikes.jpg
search04ospikes.jpg (103.28 KiB) Viewed 276 times
Welcome to the VAMWorld 2.0 discussion boards. R.I.P. old VAMWorld.

Geseas
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by Geseas » Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:59 pm

Kurt28 wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:33 pm
"when is a doubled profile a doubled profile?" I've had similar questions concerning date placement - near, far or slanted? And mint mark position and tilt. My education is a work in progress.

As for PUP photos to be added to the VAM listing pages, I think Ihnumis1 has provided a few, especially the spikes on the eagles left leg. Someone might add it to the listing. I'd do it, but I am not confident in my computer editing skills.
I would go ahead and give it a try...IMO We have good folks here that can help. I have been using @PacificWR work in this area as a kind of template. You can always go back and undo. I will help if I can from my end. I think those photos would be a great addition to the 1904-O VAM-3 page.
Last edited by Geseas on Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

keilg1
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Re: Silver Dollar 1904 O

Post by keilg1 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:08 am

Geseas wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:59 pm
Kurt28 wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:33 pm
"when is a doubled profile a doubled profile?" I've had similar questions concerning date placement - near, far or slanted? And mint mark position and tilt. My education is a work in progress.

As for PUP photos to be added to the VAM listing pages, I think Ihnumis1 has provided a few, especially the spikes on the eagles left leg. Someone might add it to the listing. I'd do it, but I am not confident in my computer editing skills.
I would go ahead and give it a try...IMO We have good folks here that can help. I have been using@PacificWR work in this area as a kind of template. You can always go back and undo. I will help if I can from my end. I think those photos would be a great addition to the 1904-O VAM-3 page.
Love to encourage folks to add to the work(load), but should we not be a bit judicious who can add pictures? My fear is that more confusion would ensue if non-official information began being uploaded/added to pages.

The road of good intentions is paved towards... well, not necessarily hell in this instance. But not necessarily where we'd like to go?

[Not targeting you, @Kurt28... I'm sure your skills would be darn'd good...]

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