1897-P VAM-11 Doubled 1-97, tripled 8. Misaligned Die Need help on minting process, die adjustments, possible recutting?

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Mike7E
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:01 am

1897-P VAM-11 Doubled 1-97, tripled 8. Misaligned Die Need help on minting process, die adjustments, possible recutting?

Post by Mike7E » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:06 am

Based on die wear this VAM-11 is a later die state than the two RonH FCP on the page, both of which are well centered. The Acc version does show some die migration but not nearly as much as this one. I am trying to figure out if the obverse die was loose and retightened off center or if it was removed from service and touched up then replaced off center. I need help from VAMers that have an EDS VAM-11. Please take a close up image of the date to determine if the 8 is tripled at the bottom inside of the lower loop like the picture following. If not please also look for any tripling or doubling in the other date digits and some stars as noted below. If these features are not in the EDS than this coin should qualify as VAM-11-A. Complicating this issue is that the reverse is definitely a VAM-11, so were both removed for reworking, or was obverse reset without removing? To be clear the misalignment is not a reason for a VAM designation as this could happen to any die pair. The question for this post is do EDS VAM-11 coins show tripling or doubling in the date and some stars like my coins.

Picked up this nice 1897-P from my favorite shop and need help with it. I think that the obverse die had date & star repunching, polishing and it was then reinstalled in the press incorrectly resulting in a misaligned die. I didn’t notice the misalignment at first as it was in a 2x2 and just marked Unc but looked like a MS63. Well, seems the reverse has a rim pinch cut that looks as if it was nicked by something like a mint tote bin door bouncing as it is not deep. Obviously can’t confirm what hit it but fun to wonder as the nick is strange.
1897-P V11 misaligned die obv IMG_2138.JPG
1897-P V11 misaligned die obv IMG_2138.JPG (230.54 KiB) Viewed 248 times
1897-P V11 Misaligned die Rev IMG_2139.jpg
1897-P V11 Misaligned die Rev IMG_2139.jpg (184.52 KiB) Viewed 248 times
Once out of the 2x2 the misalignment stood out. The obverse rim is wider than normal on the right with a ridge line at the outer edge from over the first U in UNUM down to over right star #3. On the opposite side the denticle gap at left star #6 is close to breaking through. The Reverse is well centered. For this one that is, as I managed to confuse myself by having pics of another similar coin in my microscope folder that I should have moved before working on this one. Guess I picked up the other VAM-11 the month before and did enough to decide is was a VAM-11 but didn’t move the pics. It is also misaligned but not as much as the wide side of the rim barely has the ridge line at 3 o’clock and the denticles don’t seem to be quite at the edge of the obverse. I advise you to move your pictures to a labeled folder before moving on to the next coin.

The date shows doubling and tripling.
1897-P 1 misaligned die A043 - 20220622_201240.jpg
1897-P 1 misaligned die A043 - 20220622_201240.jpg (185.54 KiB) Viewed 248 times
1 doubled both sides of vertical shaft
1897-P 8 misaligned die A044 - 20220622_201303.jpg
1897-P 8 misaligned die A044 - 20220622_201303.jpg (185.28 KiB) Viewed 248 times
8 doubled outside left and right of upper and lower loops, tripled bottom inside of lower loop, die chips both sides where loops meet
1897-P 9 misaligned die A045 - 20220622_201336.jpg
1897-P 9 misaligned die A045 - 20220622_201336.jpg (177.62 KiB) Viewed 248 times
9 doubled outside left upper loop and outside right side. Bulge inside lower left upper loop. Rough break closed 9

Mike7E
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:01 am

Re: 1897-P VAM-11 Doubled 1-97, tripled 8. Misaligned Die Need help on minting process, die adjustments, possible recutt

Post by Mike7E » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:13 am

1897-P 7 misaligned die A046 - 20220622_201400.jpg
1897-P 7 misaligned die A046 - 20220622_201400.jpg (179.2 KiB) Viewed 247 times
7 doubled back vertical shaft, notch at junction of upper crossbar and lower vertical shaft
Obverse stars R#1 to R#5 and L#1 & L#2 show some doubling

Why die polishing and touch up? The RonH and Occ FCP on the webpage have more detail in the hair than either of my coins so mine are later strikes with additional die wear. The three FCP and the closeup pics at the page show rough polishing lines in LIBERTY that are reduced but the same on my coins. The page coins have other lines that are stronger than my coins including: Lines between and beside the Wheat Kernels; A line just below the ear; Several lines in the hair; Marks at and above the eyelid. Lines at the Cotton Bolls are barely seen on my coins but visible on the page coin pics. This could be due to die wear of course but I also found that a few of the stars and the date show doubling that I can’t see on the page pictures. This is why I suspect that the die was removed, retooled and then polished. Maybe the doubling was always there and not noted? The bottom inside of the lower loop of the 8 shows tripling on both of my coins that is not visible in the FCP or close ups.
1897-P V11 misaligned die extra rim line A021 - 20220622_193301.jpg
1897-P V11 misaligned die extra rim line A021 - 20220622_193301.jpg (150.91 KiB) Viewed 247 times
Wider than normal rim with ridge line
1897-P V11 Misaligned die left denticles A167 - 20220727_182345.jpg
1897-P V11 Misaligned die left denticles A167 - 20220727_182345.jpg (154.69 KiB) Viewed 247 times
Denticles nearly break through
Ear 1897-P misaligned die 2 A149 - 20220705_173513.jpg
Ear 1897-P misaligned die 2 A149 - 20220705_173513.jpg (173.92 KiB) Viewed 247 times
Line under ear on all FCP also. Deterioration at the inside back of the ear on my two coins, showing die fatigue.
Eye marks 1897-P misaligned die A156 - 20220707_182127.jpg
Eye marks 1897-P misaligned die A156 - 20220707_182127.jpg (174.71 KiB) Viewed 247 times
Interesting marks at eye.

Mike7E
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:01 am

Re: 1897-P VAM-11 Doubled 1-97, tripled 8. Misaligned Die Need help on minting process, die adjustments, possible recutt

Post by Mike7E » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:17 am

REVERSE:
My coins match the die break from D to wing to rim and laurel leaf to wing to S as seen in the Occ FCR and page pics, however the laurel leaf to wing to S is not yet developed on the RonH Coin and Plate FCR.
1897-P V11 Misaligned die rev pinch A031 - 20220622_195638.jpg
1897-P V11 Misaligned die rev pinch A031 - 20220622_195638.jpg (175.07 KiB) Viewed 246 times
1897-P V11 misaligned die cut mark A167 - 20220726_172035.jpg
1897-P V11 misaligned die cut mark A167 - 20220726_172035.jpg (151.67 KiB) Viewed 246 times
Pinch isn’t that deep and has a strange shape.
Eye 1897-P V11 2 A184 - 20220706_183119.jpg
Eye 1897-P V11 2 A184 - 20220706_183119.jpg (197.66 KiB) Viewed 246 times
Eye marks from my other VAM-11
1897-P 8 V11 other A160 - 20220706_182306.jpg
1897-P 8 V11 other A160 - 20220706_182306.jpg (193.23 KiB) Viewed 246 times
8 from my other VAM-11

RogerB
Posts: 846
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Re: 1897-P VAM-11 Doubled 1-97, tripled 8. Misaligned Die Need help on minting process, die adjustments, possible recutt

Post by RogerB » Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:48 pm

To be straight forward, I read too many assumptions to untangle.

Suggest going to From Mine to Mint and examining the toggle press descriptions and images. Then try Journal of Numismatic Research (JNR) Issue #1 with an article about a toggle press patent and drawings. Follow them carefully and you shoud fine some answers - or at least clearer questions.

RWB

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