What is the correct term?

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Re: What is the correct term?

Post by vampicker » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:46 am

If the obverse markers aren't a match, it CAN NOT be a VAM 23 - period. And you know this. But if you do find any other stages related to this progression, I'd be interested in seeing them.

And you dodged the question yet again. Very different things happened with similar events throughout this lengthy progression. Your answers to the what are solid. Your interpretation is another thing altogether.

I'll ask the other members of the board again if they understand the point you're trying make beyond arguing with me.

And Alan, thanks for the response. "I don't know and don't care - just want the good one!" is likely the general consensus.
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Re: What is the correct term?

Post by MarkyB » Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:31 am

I enjoyed the dialogue and the love of the craft displayed by both in their words. Soft dies is an assumption unless testing was completed on the dies in question. I imagine that would be in a record. Records are sometimes incorrect because those responsible will not call out there own incompetence or lack of oversight. I'm not qualified to pick a side but if the records indicate a site required additional assistance due to improper treatment of dies, and it aligns with the mintage of the coins in question, I would lean in that direction. A clash that severe would garner special attention. Sequence and talking dies and 23 vs 7 etc. is beyond my Vam intellect....and I don't know or care if that aligns me with one side or the other. Perhaps a time machine and a fly on the wall are in order...

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Re: What is the correct term?

Post by LateDateMorganGuy » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:25 am

I remember a time in St. Charles Missouri where there were 12 to 13 VAMmers at a dinner table with great light. There were also two V23As at the table. Funny, nobody talked about die progressions, die incest, hard or soft dies, etc. All they cared about was the obverse clash and being able to look and hold one. I guess one person was so nervous holding one that it went titanic into a glass of iced tea. Don't remember if it was unsweetened or sweetened.

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Re: What is the correct term?

Post by MarkyB » Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:00 am

Well, since St Charles is generally to the north, unsweetened I imagine.

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Re: What is the correct term?

Post by PacificWR » Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:39 pm

Letting the dies talk to you = Die sequencing

Die sequencing is the method used to list the facts of the obverse/reverse dies that appear on the coins. An example is the clashing that appears on the coin. The die sequence number increases when additional facts appear. An example is: die sequence #1 shows a clashing event and die sequence #2 shows a clashing event plus a die crack. Next, when using die sequencing and combining it with detailed photos (of each die sequence) it creates a roadmap for others to follow. The roadmap is laid out on each VAM page for viewing (see VAM pages). In addition, die sequencing is different from die stages. A die stage can be found in a die sequence. An example is the 1889-P VAM-23B Die sequence #3. In Die sequence #3 there are at least four die stages. Each die stage shows how the die roughness changes in each die stage.

In short: die sequencing list the facts of the dies as they appear on the coins. Another way to put it, it tells what happened using facts.

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Re: What is the correct term? - Solved

Post by SilverToken » Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:49 pm

This posting has tracked sideways. The term I will be using will be “Sintered Die”. I first found the term on a Canadian Coin website, in metallurgy references and it fits the look perfectly for the 1889 VAM’s 23B stage 3&4, VAM 30 and VAM 49. The highlighted 3rd paragraph of Wayne’s provided LVA letter explains the “secret sauce”, not die polish, that originally corrupted the dies. After much research, it was found VAM's 30 and 49 were never overpolished. These dies were all doomed from creation. Google the word “Sintered” for definition & images and compare for yourself. I feel this has answered my own original question, though others may not.
LVA New Article on 1889-P Dies.jpg
LVA New Article on 1889-P Dies.jpg (248.86 KiB) Viewed 852 times
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