OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

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RogerRock
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OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerRock » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:10 pm

Striking errors seldom show up on Walking Liberty Half Dollars. Quality control on the entire Walker mintage was exemplary. I simply label this as major die gouges. What would you call it?

This error is not unique since I found two of them with same date and gouges.
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Last edited by RogerRock on Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fogie
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by fogie » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:02 am

ODD - AWED....No idea!

RogerRock
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerRock » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:13 am

fogie wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:02 am
ODD - AWED....No idea!
THANKS Brent!
I have searched thousands of Walkers with Very Few errors found. I found a few cracked planchet examples and several small planchet clips but no major striking errors besides the two 1940 die gouges.
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vampicker
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by vampicker » Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:28 am

Wild! Looks way too strong for feeder fingers. Is the stuff that appears to be to the right and below In God We Trust directly opposite the affected area on the reverse?
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerRock » Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:01 am

vampicker wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:28 am
Wild! Looks way too strong for feeder fingers. Is the stuff that appears to be to the right and below In God We Trust directly opposite the affected area on the reverse?
Yes ,and more above Y.
. More stuff on obverse between L and I that is also weak.
Rim is not involved.
The better grade example of the two is about to cross your desk John or someone at ANACS.
Brian R. looked at it in hand and commented that he did not think it was feed finger gouges.
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vampicker
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by vampicker » Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:17 am

Cool, I'll look forward to seeing it in hand. Might come back with something generic like 'die gouges' but I'll try to dig a little
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerRock » Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:25 am

vampicker wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:17 am
Cool, I'll look forward to seeing it in hand. Might come back with something generic like 'die gouges' but I'll try to dig a little
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by pup_picker » Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:28 am

vampicker wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:17 am
Cool, I'll look forward to seeing it in hand. Might come back with something generic like 'die gouges' but I'll try to dig a little
.
maybe compare some vlds CBH. if it is a similar effect, quite surprising to not see it more on the WLH.

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vampicker
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by vampicker » Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:13 pm

I'd think there's a limit to comparisons with any of the pre 1836 coinage as it is a largely different process. But I see your thought process here - the present example does have an effect that resembles the late stages of many of those early halves
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerB » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:59 pm

The "rays" seem to be radially oriented - not parallel as expected from some coin striking damage/

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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerRock » Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:04 am

RogerB wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:59 pm
The "rays" seem to be radially oriented - not parallel as expected from some coin striking damage/
The extra "radial rays" are raised like die gouges from the dies. Somehow the dies were damaged much worse on the reverse than the obverse. The radial orientation usually is caused by contact with feeder fingers on Morgan Silver Dollars. However, the gouges on this Walker are much stronger (reverse) and widespread on both dies.

Most "coin striking damage" is related to Struck Through Debris which always results in an incuse impression on the coin.

The absence of clash marks rule out clashed die cause and effect.
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerB » Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:52 am

Please explain how straight-line feeder/ejector mechanisms can produce radial makes on a die.

Thanks

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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by messydesk » Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:26 am

RogerB wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:52 am
Please explain how straight-line feeder/ejector mechanisms can produce radial makes on a die.

Thanks
They don't. The above statement is mistaken. Feed finger marks on the dies are going to be straight across the die, parallel to each other if there are multiple such marks, and on silver dollars they are on the left and right halves of the anvil die.
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerB » Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:42 pm

Thanks!

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pup_picker
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by pup_picker » Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:22 pm

vampicker wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:13 pm
I'd think there's a limit to comparisons with any of the pre 1836 coinage as it is a largely different process. But I see your thought process here - the present example does have an effect that resembles the late stages of many of those early halves
how about an extreme case of trail dies?

sitting here looking at some foreign ddo/ddr etc coins and looking at some of the anomalies, in this instance, trail dies, which are scattered all over this particular example so i thought i'd mention it. i'd post a pic but i'm certain you know what trail dies are.

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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerRock » Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:56 pm

pup_picker wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:22 pm
vampicker wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:13 pm
I'd think there's a limit to comparisons with any of the pre 1836 coinage as it is a largely different process. But I see your thought process here - the present example does have an effect that resembles the late stages of many of those early halves
how about an extreme case of trail dies?

sitting here looking at some foreign ddo/ddr etc coins and looking at some of the anomalies, in this instance, trail dies, which are scattered all over this particular example so i thought i'd mention it. i'd post a pic but i'm certain you know what trail dies are.
An excellent website Traildies.com by Robert (BJ) Neff, Bob Piazza, Jason Cuvelier, and Will Brooks covers all the related topics on trail dies. Trail dies are caused by die polishing when a rotating brush or buffing tool drags debris from die recesses which can erode a gouge (or series of parallel gouges) into the higher relief of the field. These die recesses are the design devices which transfer onto the coin in raised relief.

The die damage on this Walker does not emanate from the coin's lettering or other devices. This rules out trail dies as cause and effect.

The parallel pattern of these deep gouges may be the result of an incomplete die polish attempt which stopped short of degrading the lettering devices ERICA any further.

Early capped bust halves displayed extreme die erosion near the rim and peripheral lettering which is relative to the inferior die steel and minting process of that time.

Thank you for your input on possible causes!
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerB » Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:01 pm

RE: "Early capped bust halves displayed extreme die erosion near the rim and peripheral lettering which is relative to the inferior die steel and minting process of that time."

“Gaspar and Dyer discuss the important production techniques indicated by the presence of a neck, which indicates the use of a collar to prevent the fishtailing of the inscription.”
[P.P. Gaspar and G.P. Dyer (1980) The Striking of Proof and Pattern Coins in the Eighteenth Century British Numismatics Journal Volume 50 1980 p 122. In Sue Tungate, Matthew Boulton and the Soho Mint: Copper to Customer. University of Birmingham. 2010. 156.]

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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerRock » Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:38 pm

RogerB wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:01 pm
RE: "Early capped bust halves displayed extreme die erosion near the rim and peripheral lettering which is relative to the inferior die steel and minting process of that time."

“Gaspar and Dyer discuss the important production techniques indicated by the presence of a neck, which indicates the use of a collar to prevent the fishtailing of the inscription.”
[P.P. Gaspar and G.P. Dyer (1980) The Striking of Proof and Pattern Coins in the Eighteenth Century British Numismatics Journal Volume 50 1980 p 122. In Sue Tungate, Matthew Boulton and the Soho Mint: Copper to Customer. University of Birmingham. 2010. 156.]
THANK YOU for the reference info.
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RogerB
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Re: OT - Feed Finger Gouges Or ?

Post by RogerB » Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:39 pm

You're welcome.
The physical situation of open vs close collar is more complicated, but the brief explanation of "fishtailing" will suffice for usual purposes. Increased die erosion farther from the center is a product of greater planchet metal movement, which in turn erodes the die. A primary steel problem was consistency in alloy which also led to localized hardening and tempering irregularities.

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