1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

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messydesk
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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by messydesk » Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:44 am

vampicker wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:48 pm
RogerB wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:10 pm

Where did this come from: "We also know that the VAM 57 and 26 used the same reverse." This statement clearly says VAM 26 and 57 used the same ("identical')reverse....or is that supposed to refer the the REV HUB design not the specific die?
Think it was simply a typo and he meant obverse. The three VAMs actually do share an identical obverse
Right. I meant obverse die.
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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by 78-sLongnock » Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:55 am

Do you have a copy of Dodges’s SF Dollar delivered in May or early May telegraph?
This would be helpful in estimating how many total B-1’s were minted

Series 1: 78-s vam 60, 26 EDS and LDS , Vam 57 Type 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 all share the Same OB (1).
Vam 60, 26 and 57 each have different Reverses (3).

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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by RogerB » Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:13 pm

These three might help. The April coinage report has not been located. It should have been in E-229 among several boxes that contained only SF letters and documents. The May-June report is from one of those boxes and shows the quantities of good pieces struck from each numbered die. (Usually, such tables show total coins struck including defective pieces.)
18780501 SF Telegraph April coinage silver dollars.jpg
18780501 SF Telegraph April coinage silver dollars.jpg (145.37 KiB) Viewed 515 times
18780510 SF Sample dollar payment sent-April report received.jpg
18780510 SF Sample dollar payment sent-April report received.jpg (163.16 KiB) Viewed 515 times
Pages from 18780713 SF Dies May-June.jpg
Pages from 18780713 SF Dies May-June.jpg (265.12 KiB) Viewed 515 times

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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by RogerB » Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:24 pm

Thank you to all who responded to my request !
:)

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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by 78-sLongnock » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:29 pm

So can we speculate that the 78-S B2 minting process started on May 15?
So let’s continue to discussion of when the 78-s Vam 58 SP plus business strikes, continuing on with the Vam 56 And finalizing with the Vam 62 were actually minted?
To Review:
The second series progression was as follows: Vam 58 OB was used once, the Rev was used twice Vam 58 and 56,
The Vam 56 OB used twice Vam 56 and 62, the Rev of Vam 62 only once.
Below are is the finest known Vam 56 to have survived so far:
Attachments
562E4273-F561-4750-9549-FFAEBE1FFAF3.jpeg
562E4273-F561-4750-9549-FFAEBE1FFAF3.jpeg (217.01 KiB) Viewed 490 times
73B5BBFB-AD5C-4E60-852E-9DE370583362.jpeg
73B5BBFB-AD5C-4E60-852E-9DE370583362.jpeg (199.66 KiB) Viewed 490 times

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messydesk
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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by messydesk » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:04 pm

78-sLongnock wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:29 pm
So can we speculate that the 78-S B2 minting process started on May 15?
No. There were only 4 B1 reverses that produced coins in the second shipment of 15 die pairs received April 26. The rest of the production was B2, so either 11 of those reverses were unusable or some were B2. Due to die sequences, we know that there were some B1 produced before some B2, but we don't know that all B1 were produced before all B2. There's nothing to indicate that the transition from B1 to B2 was intentional, The 78-CC VAM 13 hints that it might have been the result of a hub break like others ('o' in God, 'r' in trust, 4th right star) that weren't even noticed or deemed important. We have the sequences 58-56-62 and 72-59-..., but nothing that guarantees some B2 coins weren't made between 62 and 72. It was going to be a matter of how Philadelphia packed the dies and how SF pulled them out of the box and prepared them for use.
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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by 78-sLongnock » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:44 pm

On 4/24/78 Linderman telegraph to Dodge requesting that 5 Morgan’s “of this coinage be forward” from the first strike. Dodge has a problem, they were given out to the dignitaries. So Dodge had the Vam 58 die pair polished up and sent him 5 Vam 58’s. Linderman acknowledge receipt of them 10 days later on May 10 1878. There was no Fed Ex in those days so with minting record from above post and shipping time overlayed, what is the best guess of the first minting of the Vam 58, 56 and 62 series?

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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by RogerB » Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:01 pm

RE: "On 4/24/78 Linderman telegraph to Dodge requesting that 5 Morgan’s “of this coinage be forward” from the first strike. Dodge has a problem, they were given out to the dignitaries."

1) Nothing demonstrates a request for coins from the first dies. The same request was made of Carson. All Linderman wanted was to examine some samples to be sure they were OK - which they were.
2) By the press accounts, Dodge distributed a few of the VAM-60 coins to people attending the ceremony. Press reports that the cost came from the Superintendent's pocket - not Government. The remaining VAM-60 coins were delivered to the Cashier on the 18th along with an additional 1,000+ from a different die pair.
3) Eventually many of the delivered coins were paid to bullion sellers, or were shipped east (probably FIFO order). See bottom two telegrams, below.
18780724 SF Paying for bullion with silver dollars.jpg
18780724 SF Paying for bullion with silver dollars.jpg (156.03 KiB) Viewed 427 times
18780725 SF Will you have enough SSD to pay for bullion.jpg
18780725 SF Will you have enough SSD to pay for bullion.jpg (159.71 KiB) Viewed 424 times
The second pair of dollar dies would reasonably have included the same VAM-60 obverse and a new reverse (Dodge still had 9 left). Any polish from the first die pair would have long vanished, so if Dodge wanted them polished (or if there was a production reason) the new pair would have to be polished again. (SF used powdered lime for this.)
Last edited by RogerB on Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by RogerB » Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:07 pm

Here is the Engraver's estimate of dollar die production capacity.
18780411 Number of dies Mint can make and ship per week_Page_1.jpg
18780411 Number of dies Mint can make and ship per week_Page_1.jpg (166.77 KiB) Viewed 427 times

78-sLongnock
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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by 78-sLongnock » Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:00 pm

Let’s get back to your hypothesis : Fact or Fiction that is the title of Your post
Last edited by 78-sLongnock on Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by 78-sLongnock » Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:16 pm

By April 24th when Linderman telegraph was received, the 1000 Vam 60s that were minted on April 17 or morning of April 18 were given away (j Gus Bert) or put into circulation. Per mint records Only 1000 Vam 60 were produced before the Reverse Failed. So next up on April 18 was Vam 26 EDS (same OB and different Rev) From your above document SF delivered 2000 on 18th (1000 Vam 60 and 1000 Vam 26EDS )
April 19: from your above document SF 24,000 delivered Vam 26EDS? And Vam 57 Type 1 and 2 ( same OB different reverse) flows into April 20: 22,000, Vam 26 LDS (remarriage) and finished with Vam 57 Type 3, 4, and 5 (remarriage).
Now it’s interesting to figure out the date when Vam 58, 56 and 62 went into production? As this is your
Hypothesis from the start of your Vamworld and PCGS form posts.
Obviously some time after April 24th

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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by RogerB » Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:23 pm

A further bit of info.

The SF shipping report of subsidiary silver coin and standard silver dollars ending June 30, 1878 shows 200,000 silver dollars shipped to San Francisco area. [E-229 box 10 of 17]

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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by RogerB » Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:29 pm

RE: "...the 1000 Vam 60s that were minted on April 17 or morning of April 18 were given away (j Gus Bert) or put into circulation."

The VAM-60s were all made on the 17th ending when the reverse die cracked. We know these were delivered to the Cashier on the 18th along with 1,000+ from a different die pair. We do not know anything about when or to whom the coins were distributed.

How can any specific die pair be said to be the #2 pair used -- on the 18th and possibly later?

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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by 78-sLongnock » Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:52 pm

RE:……”How can any specific die pair be said to be #2 pair used”
RE………“ permit me to state up front “die progression “ involves a lot of assumptions and I really do not pay much attention to them”
Here is another fact that helps in studying “die progression “
The 9 B-1’s used 3 different collars.
Series 1 used collar #1 Reed count 186 for Vam 60, 26 EDS, 57 stage 1 and 2, Vam 26 LDS, Vam 57 stage 3, 4 and 5
Series 2 used collar #2 reed count 185 Vam 58, Vam 56 and Vam 62.
The polishing of the dies, cracks on the fields as dies are starting to fail, polish line, and gouges help in confirming die progression from both of the above two series.
Again, all info from above was obtained from B-1’s in hand.

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Re: 1878-S dollar. Can you separate fact from fiction?

Post by RogerB » Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:05 am

I understand about die states/"progressions" etc. I merely give that less reliability than some others do.

RE: "Series 1 used collar #1 Reed count 186 for Vam 60, 26 EDS, 57 stage 1 and 2, Vam 26 LDS, Vam 57 stage 3, 4 and 5."
Accordingly, the Ajax press was equipped with SF dollar collar #1, as were the others listed.

Is there a reason for breaking up the VAM 26 and 57 sequences?

So: "Series 2 used collar #2 reed count 185 Vam 58, Vam 56 and Vam 62," was likely used on a different press, since it would not make sense to simply swap one collar for an identical one.

If these two are only 1-reed apart in count, then one of them might have some overlapping reeds given the knurling tool in use and multiple passes. SF cut and hardened their own collars.

Where is collar #3? (BTW SF had 3 large presses used for DE and silver dollars.)

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